I have often often seen on the web, especially on minority sites (particularly black American) comments accusing East Asians of wanting to be white because they favor light skin in their women or eyes with double lids.
The latest example is this:
I saw this today posted on Booker Rising, a site I regularly post on, owned by a person named Shay, who I admire, but sometimes she lets some of her personal hangups eat away at her ability to reason (which is usually vast). My response to her comments and the original writer of the post, John Hope Bryant:
I lived in Shanghai, China in 1999, and also in Tokyo, Japan from 2001-2002. While in Japan I managed to visit Taiwan and South Korea too.
South Koreans, like Japanese, and Chinese have had a white skin fetish for their women that preexisted any Western European contact.
You can see this reflected in Tang Dynasty China which was roughly the same time as the later part of the Western Roman Empire. There were envoys that were exchanged, but for most Chinese had never seen a European.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C005742/tang%20-%20zhou%20fang%201.jpg
There are some East Asian women naturally as pale as in the link (my sister in law is, the younger one), but most are not. Typical make up was used and in later centuries, Geisha, in Japan, also pained their faces white, as it was considered beautiful.
Geisha go back a long time before any Dutch or Portuguese contact with Japan, which would be the initial sustained European contact in the mid-16th century:
http://www.danhagerman.com/images/Pseudo%20Geisha.jpg
This is true in Korea as well:
http://www.askasia.org/images/teachers/display/670.jpg
The explanation I have heard is that the upper classes did not do physical labor and stayed in doors so they were lighter, many Asians are naturally pale but unlike many Europeans they do not burn easily, but tan darker (yellowish-brown), so being dark became a sign of being low class.
This goes back to at least the time of Confucius in China (over 2,000 years, around the 6th century BCE)…maybe longer, but that is based on the art I have seen. It is likely more ancient.
So sorry, no it is not about white people.
As far as “big eyes”…
Koreans do this surgery a lot, Japanese are probably the second most, followed distantly by the less affluent Chinese. Also on average, Chinese probably have the highest frequency of natural double lids anyway.
Typical in East Asian large eyed women were considered attractive historically in China (not sure about Korea, and not so in Japan) there is a famous Chinese poem from hundreds of years ago about the “Grape Eyed Girl” and how beautiful her large black eyes were, which I am trying to find translated into English.
To be specific the eye thing is not about “big eyes” as we would think in the West but actually double and single lid.
http://lreflection.wordpress.com/2006/08/22/double-eyelids-vs-single-eyelids/
As this link shows, 50% of Chinese are born naturally with double lids, and about 20% of Japanese and Koreans:
http://eyemd.wordpress.com/2007/02/02/are-double-eyelids-inherited-genetically/
As for average skin color:
Typical Japanese women are about this color:
My wife is slightly lighter, but close enough, she has never used skin lightener. Her make up does have a sun screen component though, as with most make up in Japan.
Korean women are about like this:
http://kati.tiuhti.net/matkaraportti/pics/Koreans.jpg
Northern Chinese tend to be paler like Gong Li:
http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/emperorandassassin/stillsclips/scenes_001_2.jpg
Southern Chinese are more admixed with South East Asia (if you read their history Northern Vietnam was part of China for 1,000 years and there was gene flow back and forth) the people tend to be shorter, larger eyed, and darker. Genetic test show this cline in China from North to South, Southern Chinese grouping with Southeast Asians and Northern Chinese grouping with Northeast Asians and Mongolians, which is fairly intuitive.
http://www.pecunning.com/asialanddiaries/Resources/glitterwig1.jpeg
For men skin color doesn’t seem to matter much as darker skin is often considered “manly” especially in Japan, where you can see the male actors are usually tan. I am not sure about Korea though, as I see quite a few fair skin male pop stars and actors, something you do not see often in China or Japan. Women are uniformly light, similar to this:
http://english.kbs.co.kr/ICSFiles/artimage/2005/12/20/c_ent_nws/woo_l.jpg
The skin dimorphism between men and women in the media is not unusual at all, although it is a Japanese actor and I believe Korean actress, the skin color difference is common on TV in East Asia.
A few years ago in Japan it was popular for Japanese to dye their hair brown.
Some black American woman, in Japan at the same time I was, told me “they just want to be white”.
She did not know that most Japanese kids and a high percentage of Korean kids have brown hair that turn black when they grow older.
For the Japanese they thought it was cute to look like “kids” especially for the girls., which makes sense, in almost every society a woman with a youthful appearance is prized. It has nothing really to do with whites, but black people (and other Americans) project their own “white/racial issues” on other cultures they don’t understand. My sister in laws both had brown hair and my wife still has brown highlights…it is not unusual however most black Americans or white Americans don’t know that. This is similar to how blond hair is seen as useful among whites, mainly because blond hair is common among white Northern European children, and usually turns darker as they get older.
Look at his hair:
http://www1.istockphoto.com/ file…happy_child.jpg
Before people project there Western values and racial hangups on people, they should actually learn about the culture and history of the people. I’m not saying there has been NO Western influence in East Asia, there has, but the extent is often overexaggerated due to ignorance. I even here Asian Americans (who often know little about their ancestors home country) repeat this nonsense. It is sad.
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Update: Related Post
I think this working class working in the sun was true of European cultures true. Today whites like to lay out in the sun and get tan. I haven’t heard anybody accuse them of wanting to be black yet.
Maybe someday Shelby Steele can use this in his argument for white guilt. Kidding of course, he wouldn’t be so silly.
haha…yeah I have actually heard black people say that whites tan out of jealousy for beautiful black skin. LOL
Tanning and being “black” is totally different…needless to say .
hey, i am mostly european and part native american. I have a question what would an european look like mixed with an asian. I mean I have heard people always commenting on that all asians look the same. I mean I am a huge fan of japanese show “POKEMON” and probably of “NARUTO”. NARUTO kinda reminds me of when japan became solitary. Anyway, would the offspring get more asian or more european?
what is wrong with wanting to be a different race? I mean aren’t we all the same? I wish to be different and do something great.
Tiff:
if we are all the same then you should not want to be anyone else, because it would not matter. I think it is psychologically unhealthy to fixate on wanting to be like someone else after a certain point.
“The Superior Man seeks within himself. The inferior man seeks within others.”
–(Kong Fu Zi) Confucius in ‘Analects’ 15:20
Anyway, as far as your question, I’m guessing your young. The average mixed East Asian/European person is going to look half way between both PARENTS or some place in between them both, maybe a little more like one or the other…all depends on how the genes fall.
Here is a good place to look at the diversity of phenotypes:
http://www.mixedfolks.com/hapaasian.htm
How about people stop speculating on differences and simply accept that we are all one species and move on with life. It’s the people who constantly talk about it that it perpetuates. Though I admire this article on the basis that it refutes the idea that “asians” want to be “white” and points out some statistics, though they are racist, just in a different way. If we were to look all around the world, certain features don’t necessary come out together. Fair skinned people have dark hair color. A flatter nose might be mixed with a more concave eye ridge, etc. etc. I think it’s important for people to move past something so superficial as tying someone’s physical look to where they came from and who they are, especially now.
Ella:
I’ve lived in two countries in East Asia and I can tell you me pretending none of this exists will not make it go away. It simply “is”. I’m not saying it should be or it should not be. I’m describing what is. Unlike Western nations, the countries in East Asian I have been are fairly homogeneous (even China, which is 93% or so Han) and they have little concept of political correctness, integration in an Western sense, or even the idea that everyone is born equal. Me talking about aggregate cultural preferences doesn’t perpetuate anything as nothing I do as an individual (especially in English) is going to sway some of these ideas that are hundreds of years old. That change, if it comes, has to come internally.
“though they are racist”
I take issue with this. I draw a clear distinction between hatred and prejudice. They are not the same thing. At least in the West when we throw around the word “racist” we are talking about hatred (i.e. hate groups, etc). I never encountered that in East Asia. There is prejudice, but then again one should expect that in highly homogeneous cultures that are thousands of years old and not used to massive waves of immigration from people very different then them in appearance.
I think it’s extremely prejudice that you think something simply “exists.” Cancer simply “is” does that mean we should stop looking for a cure? How about back then when pneumonia and slavery simply “was” also? I’m sorry but since you don’t know, let me inform you. I am Chinese but a naturalized American and plan on living in Germany. The look might seem to be the same, but it doesn’t mean anything. Just like people in Finland look somewhat different from let’s say, Germans. It doesn’t mean they are a different race. In South America, people who look what Americans might call “tan” are considered “white” (this was done in the study in the essay “Mixed Blood” as well). I find it offending that you say Asians have little sense of “political correctness, integration in an Western sense, or even the idea that everyone is born equal.” You are an extremely racist person and I hope that one day you will become less so. I do not mean at all there is hatred, I mean “racist” as in that a person is prejudged or in any sort of way discriminated against simply because of their physical appearances. I hope you reconsider your studies Mr. Dragon whatever. For I realize that you spoke like that simply because you saw my nickname, Ella, a Western name. I think it’s people like you who truly detain us form a higher future. Yes change does come individually and internally, but also with the sway of the media. If you were to rule a country, I think neo-colonialism in the sense of glass walls and forever perpetuated notions of Asians being better at SATs and Africans being better athletes will continue until the end of time since as you say, it can only be individual, so it’s ok for people to spread such ideas about Asians being once again homogenous and not politically correct, against integration, and that we like to have fair skin and that Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese all look a certain way. I find first of all surprising that you can even judge since you are not even of this “race” as you call it. If we were to refer to some more studies on cultural anthropology, it is true that people born with certain backgrounds recognize those of their backgrounds more. i.e. - a white person will recognize slight differences in “white” faces more. Since this seems like something you would agree with, how do you respond to your informal studies on Asian looks?
Ella:
This is the last time your rant will be posted on this site. If you do not have something pertinent to add to this post I will delete any new nonsense.
You seem to mistake reporting the average reality or what is true most of the time in a country for me thinking it is “good” or me agreeing with it. I do not. The reality is it is not my country and to be honest I don’t care if the AVERAGE person in China thinks having skin as black as charcoal is good. It is not my country, culture, and I no longer live there.
Are you telling me it is racist to say that East Asians (Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese) on average think women with lighter skin (bai de pifu) are more attractive? Are you saying it is racist to say that on average (especially in the media) the women with double eyelids are considered more attractive. Are you saying in China in 2008, people don’t say “yi bai zhen yi bai chou (one white covers one thousand uglies)”? Don’t Chinese say “Yi bai zhe shan chou” as in, being pale/fair covers up 3 ugly spots” Why is it racist to state reality? Does stating something automatically mean agreement? If I state that Nazi’s hate Jews does that mean I hate Jews?
I also never said anywhere in my post above that all Chinese or all East Asians look the same. In fact I said there is variation and I spoke specifically about Chinese variation that tends to cline from North to Southeast in China. However, we are talking about averages. Just because Southern people might have a different average look (i.e. people in Guangdong) from people in the North (i.e. Shangdong) does not mean there is not overlap. Just as some Fins might look identical to the “average” German. If you have a population of people and Population A. has an average of 6 and Population B has an average of 9, does that mean that all people in Population A are different in appearance from Population B? No.
I’m not really concern with what you feeeeel is offensive. It is widely known that the countries I spoke of above (not all Asians, but specific Asian countries) are highly ethnocentric and in the case of Japan and S.Korea, I would even say xenophobic by Western standards. I stand by that and I can produce sociological studies to prove that. Would you like to see a few? I’m sure I can provide at least 5. When I lived in Shanghai people would call me “black devil”, “monkey”, “look dirty (kan zeng)”, “too black”, etc” Is that politically correct in a Western sense? I had a white friend with Red Hair who people would often comment that she looked like a demon. Is that politically correct?
Your point about South America has no meaning, at least in the way you stated it. I’m not sure what that adds to your argument. It is like Chinese people calling blond hair “gold hair” or Koreans calling all eyes black, although many Japanese people have light brown eyes. And…? What is your point?
Extremely racist? Do you think I discriminate against or hate other races of people? Based on what? Do you consider observations about other nations to be racist because they are not positive in your estimation? I think your nationalism and ethnocentrism is showing as your lack of ability to reason is either a result of your low intelligence or your inability to objectively think about anything that you feel has to do with your nationality. So you simply react based on emotion. As I said this will not be tolerated here.
…And no I don’t care about your name or where you are from. My response would be the same. The fact you think that tells me you have a tendency to assume too much.
What are you talking about Neocolonialism? If I were to rule a country it would be based on meritocracy. Once again I never said Asians are homogeneous? I also never said all Asians look the same. I never even talked about “all Asians”. What is your TOEFL score? I know English is not your friend language but it is obvious either you are purposefully lying about what I said or you did not even understand it. Please produce quotes from my article above that prove this. I will wait.
I don’t have a response to an “informal study” of Asian looks because I never said “all Asians” look alike or “All Asians” do anything. I spoke specifically about 3 different ethnic groups and I spoke about how they vary in AVERAGE ideas attractive appearance. That was not a point I made and not something I believe. That is your opinion of what I said based on your own bias. Please give me a quote that shows I said this.
As I said, if you respond make your response free of ethnocentric or racialcentric emotionalism and base it on facts and not on what you THINK I MEANT or what you THINK I SAID.
Any other reply will result in the deletion of your post as it is a waste of time.
Dragon Horse wrote:
“I take issue with this. I draw a clear distinction between hatred and prejudice. They are not the same thing. At least in the West when we throw around the word “racist” we are talking about hatred (i.e. hate groups, etc). I never encountered that in East Asia. There is prejudice, but then again one should expect that in highly homogeneous cultures that are thousands of years old and not used to massive waves of immigration from people very different then them in appearance.”
Could it be that other people who look like you have experienced hatred in these countries because of their appearance?
I ask because I came across an article some time ago about “black Koreans”-children raised in Korea who were born to Black-American G.I.s and local woman. One such person was abused by her relatives (her mother was a single parent) because of her father’s race. I wouldn’t call this prejudice; it seems like racism to me.
Based on what you know about these East Asian societies, is this xenophobia applied across the board to ALL foreign people who are physically different in appearance from the general population or more intense toward people who are further removed in appearance from the average person in these countries?
BTW, my sister has a friend, black and very African looking, who lived in China for years teaching English. Her experiences mirror yours. Interestingly, she now teaches English in Djibouti and prefers China because of some recent rukus over there involving some students’ opposition to a woman teaching them English or something.
G-man:
No it varies. I know in China (as I ment several black African students who attended Fudan University in Shanghai) that Africans are treated worse than black Americans. I can say that Nigerians in Tokyo are treated worse than black Americans. The difference is that in Tokyo most Japanese assume all blacks are America and can’t really tell the difference between them and Nigerians, for example. In China, people tend to assume all blacks are Africans (at least in some parts of China) because the source populations of black people in those nations differ. IN China, historically more black African students, in Japan more black military.
Most people prefer any Western person, even a black or HIspanic one to a none Western person. I do feel that their is a preference for white Westerns over blacks, but I also feel their is a preference for black AMericans over Indians or even Asians from other nations, etc (among a lot of folks).
I can tell you that most Japanese still tend to look down on foreign Asians as (sankokujin - third worlders) although this is changing with Koreans and maybe people from Taiwan. Chinese also tend to look down on Japanese and maybe Southeast Asian (Japanese due to WWII), but seem to have some good feelings toward S.Koreans (well that depends on the person but Korean cultural things seem very popular).
So the heirarchy seems to be white Westerns, any Western, everyone else. Japanese don’t seem to think much of whites, like Russians either, maybe because most of them in Japan are prostitutes.
Getting specifically to your question, do some East Asians hate blacks. Sure. I honestly did not feel that most people “hate blacks” though, in fact I feel, as I said the level of hatred is less in Japan than in Texas toward blacks. Like I said I differentiate between hatred and discrimination.
I would say that, first off, in my experience and from what I read and people I know who have lived in South Koreans, they are probably these most xenophobic East Asians. I guess due to their history they have to be or they would have been absorbed by China or Japan long ago.
THat being said, there are a lot of Koreans (and always have been) tho are sympathetic toward the North and blame America for splitting up Korea and see Americans as their enemy. In Korean tradition you are also not really considered Korean unlessy your father is Koeran. I’m nto sure if this is still the law, but I know at one time you could not get citizenship unless your father was Korean. I know Japan had this type of law, but was changed some years back (maybe 15-20 years ago).
So are there people in East Asia who would object to their children marrying blacks but approve of them marrying whites? Certainly. Do I find this so common, not really. Most of the people who “object” to such things are nationalist who don’t want their children marrying any foreigner.
For example, my grandmother-in-law was not pleased my wife married me (her parents don’t care) but she said better an American than a Korean.
I think there are quite a few Japanese who would agree with that. I have met ethnic Koreans who live in Japan (Zainichi) and, at least the ones I talked to in Tokyo complained about prejudice that I never experienced. I was shocked to be honest. Then again maybe I never had to go to a Japanese school or really interact with my neighbors (neighborhood association) etc. My experience with Japanese are just buying things, at work (where the langua franca was English), my wife’s friends, etc. My life as an expat is not the same as that of a Japanese citizen. I did meet one black American who had been in Japan since around 1980, he gave up his citizenship and has a Japanese one, a wife, 3 kids. He told me that his oldest son experienced some issues, but the other young kids have not. He didn’t complain of any major prejudice (other than I experienced). He was from Alabama and was convinced white Americans were far more racist than Japanese people.
DH Wrote:
“I did meet one black American who had been in Japan since around 1980, he gave up his citizenship and has a Japanese one, a wife, 3 kids. He told me that his oldest son experienced some issues, but the other young kids have not. He didn’t complain of any major prejudice (other than I experienced). He was from Alabama and was convinced white Americans were far more racist than Japanese people.”
Mmmm. Sounds like someone I know who lives in a Scandanavian country.
Thanks for the response…I was curious and I always have to ask black folks who’ve lived in places that see very few black people up close and personal how they were treated. Your experience seems to mirror the experience of someone I know (former co-worker) who lives in Europe. She told me some European nationalities are far less xenophobic or racist than others. Some make a distinction between black Americans and others-black or otherwise-who are non-Western people. According to her, it’s not always about appearance as some Middle Eastern or South Asian people were seen in a less positive light than African Americans. Currently she lives in Slovenia of all places.
[Hi. My name is Ella. I said something stupid after I was warned and got my message erased. Please learn from my example.]
edited by moderator
I’m an American who has lived in Seoul and I agree with 99% of what Dragon says. Most Asians aren’t racist in the way that you would simply hate someone because of skin color. Their traditional cultural aesthetic just isn’t inclined to dark skin. Just like some cultures would think most waif-bodied asians are unnattractive (I hear all the time on TV “flat-chested Asians” etc.) Asians preferred white skin because it meant they were of the leisurely upper classes and didn’t have to toil under the sun. Same thing with fat women; Hawaiians, Skandinavians and some African cultures thought skinny women were hideous and still do in fact.
Because of their lack of self consciousness about being “politically correct” and of course they don’t mean to offend because if they actually thought the person would be hurt by comments, they wouldn’t say anything. Most Asians want to engage with western foreigners than people who are really racist because they see foreigners as fascinating. I think there are more truly Racist Asians/Blacks/Whites/etc in America, Australia and Russia than there are in Korea. However, when it comes to the abiity to hate, all men are created equal.
Anyway, Korea is actually becoming less xenophobic due to popular media and globalization in general, of course the older generations are yet concerned about blood ties, but it’s not that they actually “hate” a certain race. They probably resent the Japanese more than any actual “race.” Koreans have more of a ‘hate’ attitude toward cultural differences than race differences; they are a very conservative culture compared with the Japanese, and many disapprove of the increased sexualization in Media and Entertainment. Also Its obvious after everything Korean about them was nearly eradicated by Japanese force, the older Koreans have more militant attitudes toward possible threats to their ethnic identity. But if one things for sure, culture is an ever-changing thing, and it is changing rapidly.
Also, Like in Okinawa, much of modern Seoul’s negative experiences with foreigners have to do with the Military; black, white, whatever; the US military are predominantly younger men who aren’t yet college educated or haven’t been exposed to other cultures. Young men in groups on their own for the first time, of any culture, don’t exactly make model examples of human decency unless they’re monks or missionaries and this has given many Koreans who have never had first-hand experiences with westerners an subconscious impression of arrogant, rowdy and sexually promiscuous Americans (applies both to males and females).
Of course this just a generalization of the recent, most of those I met in Seoul are more socially aware, for good and bad.
i’m of chinese desent and i can’t figure if i hava blck eyes or dark brown
Wow, someone couldn’t handle a prolonged debate. Props to ella for at least speaking her mind, even if I don’t agree with all that she said. Shame on the webmaster. Good effort, but you can’t explain away a colonised mind so easily..
How refreshing to read about someone who actually understands these aspects of East Asian culture! (BTW, they are not just confined to East Asia; I can confirm Southeast Asia is very similar). I’m a woman of Filipino descent who traveled extensively and grew up in several countries (including the United States) but returned home to finish my secondary education, and I’ve always been mistaken for East Asian because of 1) my paleness (most Filipinas are brown) 2) my smaller “Chinese” eyes. I am not as pale as a Korean but about the same as most Japanese, and in Asia I’ve had people express envy over the shade of my skin. As I personally like my own natural color and think the popularity of tanning in the West as a status symbol - as well as the extent to which women will go or damage their skin to acquire this “glow” - ridiculous, I’ve been more sympathetic to this preference than your typical Asian-American, who, from limited exposure to their “homegrown” popular culture, might see this as a deplorable product of colonial mentality and white-man syndrome (this has happened already in some Asian-American forums, but luckily more informed Asians quickly refuted those posts).
It’s true, most Asian girls do not wish to look white - to them Caucasian would be far too white in fact. Interestingly however, just as in the United States, most consider Eurasians/mixed Asians beautiful, sometimes more beautiful than individuals of either purely Caucasian or Asian descent - possibly because such people possess the desired traits of pale, Asian skin and large eyes without losing their Asian-ness.
I’ve also observed an interesting paradigm shift in Filipino society - in earlier years it was Spanish (Caucasian) and Filipino mixed-bloods that held most of the fascination for the masa (masses). Now it seems to be shifting to Filipino-Chinese, which may be related to the ever-increasing status and power that ethnic Chinese hold in most countries in Southeast Asia.
Thank you for this article, it’s right on the mark.