The Postnational Monitor

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1. 

   Great Britain is the opposite of the U.S. The higher up you go socially and economically the more resistance whites have to intermarriage with Africans and Afro-Caribbeans.

   Also, despite the attraction to such notions as people of color unity, according to Nick Cohen’s “What is Left?” whites in Britain are more accepting of intermarriage with people of African descent compared to Asian Indians.

   With regard to Hispanics: the kinds of Hispanics more likely to marry blacks are probably Caribbean ones as you stated earlier. This is partly do to the fact that they are more likely to live in the same neighborhoods and there is, at least in my experience, some degree of cultural affinity between the two. This appears to be the case even in the DC Metro Area, where Caribbean Hispanics are a small minority in the Latino population. Many black/Latino couples I see in my social circles involve a Caribbean Hispanic as opposed to a Central American one. They have more “flavor” too, but that is just my personal opinion.

   BTW, you should post this on ODR forum.

   Comment by G-Man — October 10, 2007 @ 11:33 AM

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2. 

   I don’t post on ODR, not seriously. Frank is up in age and maybe in 10 years when he is not around I will come back and post seriously. I am not interested in his Lee Kuan Yew type of bias rule application; purposeful straw men; and invective distortions, all so that he can trap people in order to suspend them because he did not like what he read. That is one site on the internet and if he wants to act like a fascist, Don Franco, can do it by himself.

   “Also, despite the attraction to such notions as people of color unity, according to Nick Cohen’s “What is Left?” whites in Britain are more accepting of intermarriage with people of African descent compared to Asian Indians.”

   This is interesting, I will look into it. Thanks for the tip.

   Comment by Dragon Horse — October 10, 2007 @ 5:20 PM

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3. 

   “My answer is black women deserve to be happy to and need to drop their racialism and take men of other races seriously, because God did not guarantee them a black man” Unfortunately, it is not as simple as this, for Black women. Black women’s “decision” to be open does not erase the realities we face; and does not necessarily increase marriage opportunities.

   “Black women are the most prejudice women when it comes to dating out.” This is not a one-sided phenomenon. Black women, like any other group, tend to go where they are accepted and appreciated. And when it comes to dating and choosing a wife, men pursue who and what they want and find desirable.

   “black women are the least desirable (based on stats) to marry for other races of men for various reasons. ” These reasons are still monolithic in proportion, and prohibitive to dating and mating. Black men find white/non-black women desirable more than white/non-black men find black women desirable – again, statistics bear this out. In addition, a white man (or any non-black man) still faces ostracism for dating or marrying a black woman – less so, for any other non-black woman. So much less, that it is apparent in the gender distribution of interracial marriages, as statistics show.

   It is also true that while the standard of beauty in this country (USA) is broadening, the average black woman does not meet what is, at the end of the day, still a European standard of beauty (hair, skin color, and to some extent, body type). Because men are strongly motivated by the visual, and because a woman’s value as a marriage partner is, to a significant extent, determined by the perception of her beauty, (you said, yourself, that “Most of the really attractive black women I know have men”); the playing field is not level for all women. Quite often, the Black woman’s beauty is best appreciated by those who share her characteristics, and can see the beauty in them – black men.

   Misperceptions about black women – that have roots in this country’s ugly racial history, persist. These misperceptions are often at work in the minds of even the most well-intentioned whites and others, and will surface, as do many non-racial issues, in a dating or marriage relationship. It could be argued that these issues can be worked through, as with many other relationship issues that crop up, but it is naive to think that some issues are not weightier, more deeply-rooted, more divisive, and yes, more hurtful, than others… and racial issues are among the greatest of these.

   These statements: “… stigmatized with “blackness” or considered “just black” ” imply that “blackness” is still perceived as a negative. All the positive decisions in the world by black women, will not change this negative perception. The street of change is indeed, a two way street (actually, its more like a multi-lane expressway.) A black woman can decide to be open to dating outside her race and take non-black men seriously, but all things do not become equal (or even close), when she makes that decision. It does not guarantee that she will encounter non-black marriageable men who will take HER seriously.

   I am not saying it is ill-advised to decide to be open. I am saying that this decision is not a remedy that will significantly sway the statistics, absent other cultural and societal changes – and it is worth pointing out because, those who don’t have reason to seriously contemplate the depths of this issue (many whites/non-blacks), sometimes think the answers are simple, when they are not.

   Comment by Nina — October 14, 2007 @ 7:04 AM

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4. 

   Nina:

   Thanks for commenting on this. At black prof, where this conversation started for me, there was only one woman who spoke to this topic, which is unfortunate. Then again, considering the cite I don’t blame more women from getting involved.

   1) I think this is two sided. I can only speak to the info I posted and to what I witnessed in my own life experience.

   Black women are approached less by men of other races but they are also faster to diss a man of another race. Believe it or not, men do not commonly approach women they feel they have absolutely no change with. This is why you often see super models on talk shows talking about “men just don’t approach me very much”; so I’m not sure how much that feeds into men not approaching black women.

   Also, historically (on a global level) it is much easier for a man to marry a woman of a discriminated group than for a woman to do so. Latin America is the most obvious case. I have seen genetic studies of varies countries in Latin America and High Caste Indians. What you see is that the invading males (Iberians or Aryans) married the local indigenous women. It rarely happened the other way around because the the indigenous were harshly discriminated against.

   You can also think about slavery. What would have happened to a white woman if she got pregnant by a black male slave. We know the black man would have been hung, but the woman might also have been killed. White males impregnated black women often and faced no consequences from their wives or the community. So I’m not sure how much that plays.

   Even today, I would argue, white women (or other races of women) face more discrimination for marrying black men than a white man would for marrying a black woman. The white male, is still a white male, despite his wife.

   2) As far as “standard of beauty” I agree somewhat. But then again no one can describe to me what an African Standard of Beauty is. I have put up pictures on sites before of African women from, Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Sengal, Niger, Congo and they don’t look anything a like. In fact the diversity in them is larger (at least in physical shape) than between Greeks and Irish. I would also say what you consider a “European Standard” is not “European” but WASP. I’ve been to Europe a few times and trust me that Russians, Italians, Greeks, French, Dutch, and English do not all have the same beauty standard. Not even close. A Swiss woman once told me (2 years ago) that Irish redheads were “disgusting” and too many Italian look like “Muslims” (she meant dark and swarthy).

   In any case, lets say there is a WASP (I will say somewhere between Gwen Paltrow to Scarlett Johansson) that black women don’t meet. The classic tall thin leggy blond or buxom blond type.

   Black women are darker, have broader noses, kinky hair, larger and rounder butts (on average). Well my wife is Japanese (from Japan) and she stands out in any population of white people. Her hair is very thick (but straight), her eyes are not like Europeans, she is as light as an Mediterranean person, but she has short legs (leg/torso ratio like most Asians), her nose is not wide, but it is not “high” like Europeans, and her lips are not quite as big as Angelina Jolie (neither are a lot of black people) but they are larger than the average white woman. So my wife does not fit the WASP standard. I’ve see Asians darker than her and with more pronounced stereotypical features as well.

   There are no naturally blond Asian women and most of them (like 90%+) are not busty.

   In this way…long legs, busty, height, weight…black women are closer to white women than whites are to Asian.

   However, Asian women marry out more than any minority women in the United States.

   you said: “Quite often, the Black woman’s beauty is best appreciated by those who share her characteristics, and can see the beauty in them – black men.”

   I would say on average this is true of any race of women, including Asians, or maybe I should say, it is more likely you find people attractive who you are familiar with the most. I do not believe men can not naturally find women of other races attractive. I have lived in Asia and saw various nationalities of black and white males running after local Asian girls in clubs, etc. to know better. The only thing is they tend to find different women attractive than what the local men do, but that is cultural, and another story.

   3) you said: “It could be argued that these issues can be worked through, as with many other relationship issues that crop up, but it is naive to think that some issues are not weightier, more deeply-rooted, more divisive, and yes, more hurtful, than others… and racial issues are among the greatest of these.”

   For you maybe. I would not say for everyone.

   I often argue this with black women who say black men marry or date white women out of “fetish”. Well that is only important to them because that is the “fetish” that “hurts” them personally (due to their own self esteem issues). People date and marry based on fetish regularly. I know black men who will not even look at a black woman twice who does not have a butt equal to about 1/4-1/3 of her total body and I’m sure you have meant men like that as well. I know white men who will not date any women who is not a natural blond (but in reality most white women are not blond, there are only 2 countries in Europe were most people are blond to my knoweldge) so this is an obvious fetish.

   No one thinks that is strange or bad. It is only when skin color comes into play that black women talk like this. That is there issue. I don’t equate one fetish more than the other. I also do not think “race” is the worst issue. A guy on blackprof tried to tell me that blacks in Europe are discriminated against because they are “black” and he implied strongly that this is worse than Arabs being discriminated against because they are Muslim (although I showed that black people marry out in the UK at a much higher rate than Muslims) and some comments by white academics that show white UK people accept blacks more than Muslims. So I asked him…”Is it worse for a skinhead to stomp you to death because you are black or because your a Muslim”.

   The point is black people are hung up on race, but there are all manners of racism, discrimination, or self hatred. I do not equate that much power to race in 2007.

   I tell a lot of black people this. You have to “own the experience of being black, not let black own you”. If you let black own you then you have already lost.

   My wife and I are of two different races, but we have rarely had any race issues between us. Cultural ones, but we are both open minded and that was years ago, we do not argue or fuss over those things anymore. We have been together for 10 years total, 3 years married, and are “fights” are like any married couple I guess, but they are rare. What it comes down to is that you have to be more secure in yourself…in your identity to be able to open up to someone else, especially someone you see as ‘different’. What I have found is that although my wife is from rural central Japan and I am from rural Eastern Ohio a lot of the things we did as children, a lot of family dynamics are quite familiar. Seems that small town life is not radically different even half way around the world in a developed nation at least. If my wife was from Mainland China (a communist developing nation) that might be quite different.

   you also said: “Misperceptions about black women – that have roots in this country’s ugly racial history, persist.”

   Do you think that a lot of black men don’t have misperceptions about black women? How many young black men think black women are hos, sex objections ,babies mammas, B’s, etc? I am not sure the exact number but I would say far too many.

   4)

   You said: “A black woman can decide to be open to dating outside her race and take non-black men seriously, but all things do not become equal (or even close), when she makes that decision. It does not guarantee that she will encounter non-black marriageable men who will take HER seriously.”

   True, but being that about 70% our black children are born as bastards and most black women in this country are not married, and a good percentage will not be married tells me that black men are not talking black women seriously either, unfortunately.

   You see to think a white man not taking you seriously is worse. That is you. I don’t see a difference. In fact, I would say based on the track record, a non-black man might be more likely to marry you or at least take care of any children. That is sad for me, as a black male, to say but it is reality.

   You said: “I am saying that this decision is not a remedy that will significantly sway the statistics, absent other cultural and societal changes”

   It is all intertwined and has to start somewhere. I don’t see many black/Asian couples. I do see some black guys with Filipino women, sometimes Korean (due to them having been in the military) and it is often assumed (because I say I have lived abroad or my wife is from Japan) that her my situation, but it is not. I never let any of that determine who I choose as a life partner.

   I think you should pay less attention to thinks you can not immediately change and what others may be thinking and what you can do in your life for you.

   Black women dating out is not a stagnant issues, there rate of dating out is increasing at a constant rate, actually lately, at a faster rate than before.

   I would say it comes down to this. Most women, even in liberated 2007 America, still have some very old world innate habits. Women want to marry a man of there same class or higher. Men will marry lower or at the same level, on average.

   A man who is blue collar might find a PhD professor intimidating. A male PhD professor might find a younger uneducated bartender attractive because she is “hot”. A woman who is a PhD professor usually does not find a garbage man attractive and finds the alpha male in her department who is “making moves” to be attractive. These dynamics can be seen everyday in society.

   So most black women in America are facing a choice…the more highly educated and successful the more of a choice.

   1) Marry “down” (Go get the garbage man or security guard brother who works hard but can’t hold a conversation on anything you find very interesting).

   2) Don’t marry (be Condi Rice for life with or without children)

   3) Expand your dating beyond black men.

   4) Take some other woman’s man or try to.

   I don’t foresee the black male dating trend changing so those are the options. I’m not trying to imply “life is fair” or black women don’t have some barriers. The point is none of that should be the deciding factor in them being alone or in serial relationships as a baby momma.

   Also what I meant by obvious reasons in regard to black women not being seen as marriageable as other races of women, had nothing to do with physical appearance (or I should say biological) as much as cultural/behavioral norms.

   If you compare various races of women in the U.S. Latinas, Asians, whites, blacks. I would say that black women ON AVERAGE) have cultural traits that would turn off or intimidate men of other races the most. I will let you figure out what those are and why it is. I don’t find this in black African women and most black Carribean women who were not raised here.

   Comment by Dragon Horse — October 14, 2007 @ 10:45 AM

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5. 

   I am including this Washington Post question and answer thread for kicks…it is somewhat informative as to some very common stereotypes and realities.

   Comment by Dragon Horse — October 14, 2007 @ 11:02 AM

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6. 

   A few things. Overarchingly, our points are not mutually exclusive.

   It is true that many Black women are faster to dismiss a man of another race, but that does not negate the reasons that we are devalued. I am well aware that men do not commonly approach women they have no chance with. If I can abandon modesty for just a minute, I hear that often. I am a very attractive woman, and I turn heads when I walk down the street. (However, my feet are on the ground, my nose is not in the air, and I cannot successfully be accused of any form of elitism or “snobism”) When men feel a little more comfortable with me, they confide that they think “a man has to have it all together to approach you.” And their definition of “all together” is often far more materialistic than mine, and just plain wrong… but that is a conversation for a different forum.

   While it is true that, historically (on a global level) it is much easier for a man to marry a woman of a discriminated group than for a woman to do so, as I understand this discussion, the gender distribution in interracial dating, and the paucity of mating/marriage partners that we are discussing pertains to black women in the United States.

   That white males [raped and] impregnated black women often and faced no consequences from their wives or the community, carried the very clear implication that black women were less valuable/invisible women. Quite often, this infraction was not considered heinous, immoral or even questionable when perpetrated on a black woman (who was considered chattel, as were her male counterparts and their children). Vestiges of this implied lesser value remain, in varying degrees. So, to an appreciable extent, it plays.

   The white male, is still a white male, despite his wife. True, but we are examining the reasons why Black women are obviously, and statistically, the least desired. If all things were equal, with the white male’s position secure, and black women “just another, but equally valuable choice he might make”, I suspect the numbers would be less disparate. While it is also true to some extent that other non-white women do not occupy the same place as white women on the “value” scale, black women are the ones in the lowest position.

   I used the term “European standard of beauty” in a colloquial sense. Call it what you will – WASP, if you like. You admitted that there is a WASP standard (somewhere between Gwen Paltrow to Scarlett Johansson) that black women don’t meet. The classic tall thin leggy blond or buxom blond type. My point, is that this cannot be ignored as a contributing factor.

   In this way…long legs, busty, height, weight…black women are closer to white women than whites are to Asian. (I think with this statement, you are working too hard to ignore the truth about how the average black woman’s beauty is valued/perceived.) Though this may be true inch for inch and measure for measure, my point still remains [solid] – that there are perceptions and attitudes at work that cause black women to be devalued and least chosen – the statistics bear me out, and more is required to sway statistics, than black women just deciding to date out.

   It is true that generally, we are attracted to the familiar. I read one study/explanation that our mother’s teach us to trust those who look like ourselves. But even when we adjust for this fact of life, there is still something that causes the statistical disparity we are examining – and certainly, standards of beauty cannot be discounted as a contributing factor. Yes, I agree that men can naturally find women of other races attractive.

   I am not giving any of the things I have mentioned more than their due weight and consideration, nor am I speaking in absolutes (in human behavior, there are very few). Statistics reveal both critical mass – the majority, and fringe populations. In this case, we are examining what the majority of the fringe population of people who date interracially, are doing.

   Among this fringe population, the gender distribution indicates that black women are the least desirable, and we [black women] alone, cannot sway that statistic with our decision to be more open and accepting – again, it is a two way street.

   I am not saying that all manner of racial tension is hurtful or divisive nor do I personally have self-esteem issues that make me easy to bruise when the better part of wisdom is to see the fallacy behind a fetish, forget about it, and date men (regardless of race) who want to date me for right and healthy reasons.

   It is true that some black people are hung up on race, but we are not alone. Again, statistics bear me out, and quite frankly, the distribution of justice – crime and punishment in the United States, indicates that race is still quite often highly influential in almost every sphere of life. I respect your opinion, but I think it is naïve to underestimate the power and influence of race in 2007.

   I don’t want to go down this road, but do you know one reason why residents of Washington D.C. cannot vote, and are not likely to be given the right to vote? Take a look at the racial constituency of D.C. for the answer. (This is openly discussed and acknowledge in law school by the way…) (My point is not about voting, per se, it is about the influence and politics of race.)

   Yes, a lot of black men do have misperceptions about black women; yes, an alarmingly high percentage of black children are born to single mothers; and yes, most black women in this country are not married. However, Black men have the same sources of mis-information and motivation to devalue black women as any other race of men. So, personally, I understand why we are where with are, with respect to race relations, and interracial dating.

   I don’t think that a white man not taking me seriously is worse (that would mean I value white men more than black men, which I don’t). There is no difference. Again, we are examining why the statistics are what they are among interracial dating, and why black women are not being chosen as mates/marriage partners. You yourself pointed out that we are, statistically, the least desired. My only point is that much more is involved than our making a decision to be more open.

   (If you devalue your own, at some point, it means you devalue yourself… plenty of pathology there…)

   For the record, as you have surmised, I am a Black woman. I grew up in several different states in the US. Frequently, my family were the “first movers” – the first blacks to inhabit a town, and my older brother and I have been the very first to integrate not one, but two grammar schools we attended. We experienced our share of racial incidents, and the front of our house was bombed, while we were in it. Still my parents close circle of friends included highly educated people of every race, creed and color. My identity is firmly grounded in the fact that I am an American Black woman, but because of my early exposure/experiences, perhaps I am positioned to understand both sides of the racial argument, and I think I can look at things dispassionately, with an understanding of human nature in all its complexity. My personal philosophy is that one should look and listen as much with your heart as your head. Secondly, seek first to understand, then to be understood, and I think I do.

   I went to undergrad in the US, but lived, and went to grad-school in Switzerland; I am a visiting professor at a small graduate school in Paris, France, and I am currently pursuing a law degree at the University of London (I commute between London, Chicago and New York.) The first thing I did when I arrived in Switzerland for the first time, was sit in the town square and observe the diversity of the European gene pool, so I understand that there is a broad spectrum of phenotypes among Europeans.

   As for your dating suggestions and choices for “more highly educated and successful black women”:

   1) While it is not unheard of, marrying down as you have prescribed it, is often a recipe for frustration if not divorce. Most marriage experts will tell you that as we get older, our ability to communicate with our mate and just enjoy spending time together, talking, becomes increasingly important. Stated differently – shared interests are one indicator of marital success. Quite often, the PhD and the garbage man/security guard don’t have a lot to talk about. This is a choice that some women make, but we can’t ignore what often makes us enjoy our partner’s company in the first place. No one is “hot” forever.

   2) Don’t marry. It IS an option. What we have to realize is that it does not necessarily mean that something is wrong with the woman who does not marry – look at the reality and choices we’re discussing. By the way, it is not fair to slam Condoleeza Rice. She made her choices, and is living her life. It is said that “every form of refuge has its price” Taking refuge in higher education – making that choice, has a cost. No one escapes this reality, whatever the choice or form of refuge.

   3) Expand your dating beyond black men. We are doing that more and more, and I am sure a slow upward trend will continue.

   4) Take some other woman’s man or try to. I don’t see how this fits in here, and I’m surprised that you said it.

   Again, my overarching point is that there are barriers that for black women on the dating/mating scene that cannot be overcome with a simple decision be be more open.

   As for cultural norms/behaviors of US black women – a few things. I am not unaware of what you are talking about, and I lament the things you are referring to, when I observe them in my sisters. I have a brother who shares his dating experiences and frustrations with me, and I know he’s telling the truth. However, the danger of bringing it up without a comprehensive treatment of the subject is that some (many) will continue to believe that black people in the United States – men and women, are INNATELY prone to self-hatred, high rates of illegitimacy, crime, poverty, low achievement, misogyny or the bad attitudes, gold digging, and emasculating behavior among women, to which you are referring. The historical experience of black people in this country was tremendously damaging. Yes, there have been horrible racial atrocities from the beginning of time – and each atrocity has unique behavioral manifestations among the peoples upon which it was perpetrated. However, for the moment, we are discussing black people – and the collective psyche of black people has not healed from our experiences, and not until that healing is complete, or at least much further along, are we going to see improvement that reaches the common man, in large numbers, such that US black women’s dating and mating options within their own race will even approximate those of women of other races/cultures. Individually, we are all at different points on the spectrum of recovery. Some of us have made great strides, and could argue that history is behind us, others have not. The thing to remember is that ANY group of people who had endured the same, would be equally damaged.

   I am NOT saying that history is an excuse not to change; an excuse to be angry; an excuse not to overcome; or an excuse not to take ownership of your own destiny, decide what you want out of life and go get it. But while history and the resulting pathologies are by no means an excuse (because life is not fair), history and the resulting perceptions ARE a significantly contributing factor to the current state of affairs; and do go a long way toward explaining why black women are the least desired in the interracial dating arena, and again, the statistics bear this out.

   Comment by Nina — October 14, 2007 @ 5:35 PM

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7. 

   Nina:

   I should make clear I am not in any way “blaming” black women for the current dating dynamic. You are correct, black women are devalued in a lot of ways (even by black men) and long have been, although i think there has been progress in this it is nowhere near as much. I hear you and I say the same things. My overall point is black women can (and need to) maximize what they have to work with. I do not believe black women are doing that.

   You also bring about a good point about “fringe population” reality is most people do not date interracially, let alone marry, but from what I have read (surveys) most people date interracially at a very high amount as compared to marry, which should not be shocking. My personal situation is very rare. A minority married to a minority. That is the least likely combination. A black man married to an Asian woman even rarer, there aren’t many of “us” out there.

   Reality is, even when adjusting for population most white people (male or female) do not marry out at a higher rate than minorities and white males marry out far more than white women. Part of that is due to the fact whites are 66% of the population and there are many whites who live in all white communities to this day, but some of it is just preference or just plain racism (their own or that of their community pressuring them).

   I also do not underestimate the power of race, but I think if no one ever stands in opposition of something scientist, for the last 3 decades, have been telling us does not even exist on a biological basis, then nothing will ever change. Racism, as we understand it in 2007, was created in the 1800’s by racist anthropologist trying to prove the superiority of the Nordic European. It was based on faux-science and was taught. There was always discrimination based on culture, appearance, etc but the idea that someone is biologically inferior due to “race” was something invented in Europe. Even during the Arab slave trade, they believed black Africans inferior, but not biologically so, because a child born of an Arab man and a black African woman was considered Arab and was not thought “inferior”. White racism was very different. It was based on the idea that blacks were inferior due to biologically on a fundamental level. Today we know that is false, however we buy into the concept on a daily basis despite the stupidity. Nothing will ever change if people keep doing that. If it can be learned it can be unlearned even if it takes another 150 years.

   “For the record, as you have surmised, I am a Black woman. I grew up in several different states in the US. Frequently, my family were the “first movers” – the first blacks to inhabit a town, and my older brother and I have been the very first to integrate not one, but two grammar schools we attended.”

   Sounds very similar to my family. I understand how difficult that can be.

   “I am positioned to understand both sides of the racial argument, and I think I can look at things dispassionately, with an understanding of human nature in all its complexity.”

   You should be proud of that…it is not a common trait.

   “I went to undergrad in the US, but lived, and went to grad-school in Switzerland; I am a visiting professor at a small graduate school in Paris, France, and I am currently pursuing a law degree at the University of London (I commute between London, Chicago and New York.)”

   Wow…I’ve traveled some as well. I have a Master’s Degree, slowly working on a PhD. I’ve studied in China (Shanghai) and lived in Tokyo, Japan for over a year. I’ve also been to Switzerland, but pretty limited to St. Gallen and Zurich, that was about 2.5 years ago.

   1) Lee Kuan Yew (former PM of Singapore) said to his kids that they should not marry anyone who was beneath the level they could live with their kids being. That is what I think of “marrying down”.

   2) I was not slamming Condi. I highly admire her, I was just using her as an example.

   4) I said, take some other woman’s man, because that is reality. I believe that black American women are more possessive of “their men” and will likely fight for them more, because they realize they are a rare commodity. I also think that explains a lot of the hoochie dress in the hood…it is just more competitive. They know if they are don’t “put out” or “look like it” the guy can go to the next woman who will. Men in the hood, might not read statistics, but they instinctively know their value.

   “however, the danger of bringing it up without a comprehensive treatment of the subject is that some (many) will continue to believe that black people in the United States – men and women, are INNATELY prone to self-hatred, high rates of illegitimacy, crime, poverty, low achievement, misogyny or the bad attitudes, gold digging, and emasculating behavior among women, to which you are referring.”

   I here you but all groups have these people. The problem is blacks just have a higher percent then what I think is normal. It is a question of degree, not kind.

   “However, for the moment, we are discussing black people – and the collective psyche of black people has not healed from our experiences, and not until that healing is complete,”

   I’m not sure what you think that encompasses, however I would say the best cure for that is time. I think as people die who remember Jim Crow or who were raised by people who remember it that will go a long way in and of itself, but that is not the complete solution. What is, I don’t know. I think this does not just apply to blacks in America but in the former-slave diaspora in the Western Hemisphere. Black Afro-Caribbeans have much the same problems in the UK, Jamaicans in Jamaica, blacks in Brazil all have much the same problems that we do (or have had) here.

   In the end, not to be negative, but I think that most of the blacks who are going to “make moves” to lift themselves up have already done so. There were always be people who “trickle out” of the hood, but I don’t have much confidence that the 20-25% of blacks that live in poverty are going to shift much in my life time without major intervention on the scale we have not seen in this country…really ever. One problem is that the black underclass has about 40% of all black children, so for everyone who makes it out, many more are born into poverty. It is a cycle I don’t see an end to. I do not see the larger society doing anything about it until the crime gets so bad that it permeates all areas of society (including suburbs and gated communities) then there might be an reaction, but I’m not sure if it is what we would want to see. Well that is another topic for another time.

   Comment by Dragon Horse — October 14, 2007 @ 8:25 PM

   Reply
8. 

   Final analysis: It is an unhappy state of affairs – one that is not easily remedied, and one that breaks my heart, when I dwell on it. After deliberating it for a while, I have to stop, and just live my life and make positive contributions to society and choices that make me happy. I am sure you know what I mean.

   Comment by Nina — October 14, 2007 @ 8:53 PM

   Reply
9. 

   you should stop in sometime or e-mail me at bolezn@hotmail.com I would love to here your view on the general climate in Switzerland, France, and the UK. I have never spent a lot of time in Europe (other then touring). Thanks again for posting, that was a very good conversation.

   Comment by Dragon Horse — October 14, 2007 @ 9:00 PM

   Reply
10. 

    Well an interesting conversation, I haven’t commented on these interracial marriage topics because I never thought I had anything but ancedotal. But Nina if you are still out there, I am a white guy married to a black woman.

    It happened just like any other girl I noticed, it was just a package thing we hit it off and next thing you know we get married and have 2 kids under 4 and one on the way. I think were done after this one, however it is going to be 3 boys and my wife really wishes she could have a girl. DH I think I read you have opened the flood gates to starting offspring, hope its “productive”.

    Anyway, I first wanted to address this least desireable stat. I have never seen the stat broken down for those without children. Remember their are a lot of black woman with children, which usually slows a man’s pursuit. I am betting single without children might find black woman in the very comparable, but I have never checked the stats.

    When my wife and I started dating she was reading this book healing America’s Wounds, and she wanted me to give a heartfelt apology for the sins of white America’s past. We had many heated battles about this, cause I just couldn’t understand what she wanted from me. We would go to these racial incite movies and I would leave not being sensitive enough and she start crying because I wasn’t a broken man after the show.

    I phrased it probably rather defensively, “its too bad some white people did this to black people, and I am sorry it happened”. She didn’t feel I was sincere enough, which irritated me. I never knew what the right answer was or if there really was one, and I am a little sarcastic, so my answers probably didn’t help much. But I think after awhile she got to know me, and that issue went away.

    Out of the girls I have known, when I meet up with old girl friends, it turns out my wife is the most compatible for me. Aside from not knowing how to apologize for all white people, we have never had a race issue. My family has accepted her, and also my friends, likewise for her family. Even her sister moved to our city so we could help raise her daughter.

    As for white men I don’t think I noticed a kid was mixed unless someone told me or I saw the parents. And I even had a 24 hour daycare for 3 years. White men just don’t think about race as much as you probably do. If you don’t have a problem dating outside of your race, its more likely the man won’t either. And I am betting as for the desireable stat, remove the children factor, and the black womam deflection factor and the stat gets close to even.

    Comment by ken — October 15, 2007 @ 11:27 PM

    Reply
11. 

    Hi, Ken.

    For starters, let me be clear. I am NOT lamenting the lack of white men who are willing to date, or take black women seriously as a potential mate. And I doubt that many black women are. Nor am I trying to figure out what I can do differently, to get white men to date me. (As I mentioned previously, I date men – regardless of race, who want to date me for right and healthy reasons.)

    My point is that more is required to sway the statistic than black women just deciding to be more open to interracial dating. Longstanding misperceptions would have to change.

    Adjusting for the presence or absence of children would NOT bring the statistics much closer to even. A single, black woman, over 40, with no children, who has never been married is not unique, and is considered “statistically insignficant”, because there are so many. (And yes, actual statistics bear this out.) This is not true, of white women. There are other, strong factors at work, that cannot be attritubed to off-putting or mitigating behaviors of black women.

    I believe you when you say that your wife was the best fit for you. I am not saying that healthy, genuine interracial relationships don’t exist, or don’t develop the same way that intrA/same race relationships do.

    It is true that white people do not think about race nearly as often as people of color, or see racism in other white people as clearly as people of color do. (And no, it is not always because we are angry, hypersensitive or reading racism into situations where it doesn’t exist.)

    A large part of the reason you don’t see it or feel it, or think about it as often, is because you are not on the receiving end of it – you don’t have to think about it. White people can live their lives and rarely confront it. This is not true of many, if not most, people of color. If we do not experience direct racism, we see and experience its utterly disenfranchising effects. We see its manifestation in impoversished neighborhoods, sub-standard schools, disporportionately low access to privilege and possibilities – even for those of us who have inarguably succeeded, when we look at the faces of those who are subject to these conditions – they are faces that look like ours. So we don’t have the convenience of distance that white people do.

    Racism is less blatant in 2007, but still exists in many insidious forms in many spheres of life – and the dating arena is no exception. It sounds as if you are projecting your enlightened, unbiased way of thinking onto other white people – I assure you that this is mis-informed, naive idealism.

    Comment by Nina — October 16, 2007 @ 1:26 AM

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12. 

    Nina:

    Ease up off of Ken a little. He is a good guy…very religious.

    “A large part of the reason you don’t see it or feel it, or think about it as often, is because you are not on the receiving end of it – you don’t have to think about it. White people can live their lives and rarely confront it. This is not true of many, if not most, people of color. If we do not experience direct racism, we see and experience its utterly disenfranchising effects. We see its manifestation in impoversished neighborhoods, sub-standard schools, disporportionately low access to privilege and possibilities – even for those of us who have inarguably succeeded, when we look at the faces of those who are subject to these conditions – they are faces that look like ours. So we don’t have the convenience of distance that white people do.”

    I do not disagree with you that white people don’t “see” racism because it does not effect them, and I also think they have no clue what it is to be a minority…those power dynamics are foreign. My wife comes from a nation where 98% of the people are the same as her and about 70% share her religious beliefs. So for her, coming to America, was enlightening, if for no other reason than she has never felt what it is to be a minority on a daily basis.

    Still some of the reasons you quote I don’t attribute directly to current racism but possibly past racism.

    Such as “low standard schools”.

    There are a number of reasons a school could be “low standard” typically we say…”well, this school has poor performance according to standardized tests and college admissions rates so it is the fault of X, Y, Z”

    Racism is usually one of the variables black people include, however, no one ever looks at the student body.

    90% of the time if the school has a high Korean or Chinese student population, regardless of funding it will be “high performing”.

    I can give you examples of this being true in Seattle…where a predominately Asian high school in a working class area is fairly equivalent in its rating to the post majority white private school in the area.

    You can have the most funding, the best teachers, and still have underperforming black and Hispanic students because teachers can not control if students show up for class, if they actually want to learn, if they do homework, if they study, if their parents are actively involved.

    I am black, grew up in this nation, and lived a few places, and I have met many underclass blacks (including in my own family) they all say the same thing…”I want ma kids ta get dey education…”

    Uh-huh…but most are not doing anything to really make this happen…when you question them they drop all kinds of excuses…”oh you can’t be that hard on kids…etc”…

    My wife used to have to take a bike to a train station, then take a train 20 minutes to get to school. Typically in the winter, her hair would be frozen before getting to the station (not joking). Her parents would make her go to school even if she had a slight fever. They said “if it is bad the nurse will send you home”…

    After school she had to some type of prep afterschool thing for 2 hours. By the time she got home at night it was usually about 6PM and she ate and did homework for another hour or two. Then she did it all over again the next day, five days a week. She also had school on Saturday half day (mostly for Gym).

    When she was in 8th grade, she had to “test” into high school. What high school you went to pretty much determined if you would go to college and what you would major in (similar to Germany I guess)..

    When my wife got out of line (as she is still hard headed) her parents would smack her across the back with a bamboo rod or on the palms of her hand. They did not tolerate any disrespect whatsoever.

    Today at 29, my wife seems no worse off, in fact she is very disciplined by American standards and went on to graduate with honors from a civil engineering program.

    So when black parents make excuses for why their child act a fool and blame it on anyone but them I am not hearing it…I know too many people (including myself, my wife) whose parents were not rich but they just did not play.

    Every lack of equal outcome is not due to immediate racism.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — October 16, 2007 @ 8:48 AM

    Reply
13. 

    I would also say…that black poverty and other issues are a minority issue in the black communit, most black people do not live like that so although racism exists, I don’t seem to be aware of any populations that are discriminated against so harshly that on 20-25% of its people are living bad…it is usually 75% or more living badly…

    Ken:

    Oh yeah no need to worry…I have no doubt my wife will be very efficient in increasing their productivity. She will be the “mean one”.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — October 16, 2007 @ 8:57 AM

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14. 

    By production, I thought I remember in one of your posts, that you are trying to increase the size of your family.

    Nina, thanks when I get some time I would like to respond to some of the things you said.

    Comment by ken — October 16, 2007 @ 11:57 AM

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15. 

    oh…yeah…well, right now the size of my family is 2. We are about a year out from trying to expand. Got help the world.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — October 16, 2007 @ 12:02 PM

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16. 

    As for easing up on Ken – I don’t think Im being harsh. I have a heart, but logic and facts are my currency of choice.

    Anyway, from my previous post:

    The historical experience of black people in this country was tremendously damaging.

    Yes, there have been horrible racial atrocities from the beginning of time – and each atrocity has unique behavioral manifestations among the peoples upon which it was perpetrated.

    However, for the moment, we are discussing black people – and the collective psyche of black people has not fully recovered from our experiences. Not until that recovery is complete, or at least much further along, are we going to see improvement that reaches the common man, in large numbers, such that US black women’s dating and mating options within their own race will even approximate those of women of other races/cultures.

    Individually, we are all at different points on the spectrum of recovery. Some of us have made great strides, and could argue that history is behind us, others have not. The thing to remember is that ANY group of people who had endured the same, would be equally damaged.

    I am NOT saying that history is an excuse not to change; an excuse to be angry; an excuse not to overcome; or an excuse not to take ownership of your own destiny, decide what you want out of life and go get it.

    But while history and the resulting pathologies are by no means an excuse (because life is not fair); history and the resulting perceptions ARE a significantly contributing factor to the current state of affairs; and do go a long way toward explaining why black women are the least desired in the interracial dating arena, and again, the statistics bear this out.

    I am not sure that we will ever see black women equally represented in interracial dating statistics. However, I am quite sure that this is not a goal that we have to achieve in order to be a healthy, whole, equally attractive choice, but rather just a phenomenon that will probably increase – and that’s fine too.

    Comment by Nina — October 16, 2007 @ 5:14 PM

    Reply
17. 

    Nina,

    “As for easing up on Ken – I don’t think Im being harsh. I have a heart, but logic and facts are my currency of choice.”

    No I don’t think you were harsh.

    I think you missed my point of the post.

    I pointed out that white men are not thinking of racism as much as you to show that white men have less of a hurdle to leap over than black woman when it comes to interracial marriage.

    Since you did agree with this, about the thinking about race less, logically the other conclusion holds true.

    I used my own eperience as an illustration. I had no issues to bring race related. But still ended up in a whirlwind of emotions on why I don’t feel the need to apologize for the actions of the white people who wronged black people. And she had to decide if I was still worth knowing even though I did not have a heartfelt regret. It was clear to me this was happening because I was white, it had nothing to do with me as a person.

    And I think my wife is probably easier on this than some.

    “A large part of the reason you don’t see it or feel it, or think about it as often, is because you are not on the receiving end of it – you don’t have to think about it. White people can live their lives and rarely confront it. This is not true of many, if not most, people of color. If we do not experience direct racism, we see and experience its utterly disenfranchising effects. We see its manifestation in impoversished neighborhoods, sub-standard schools, disporportionately low access to privilege and possibilities – even for those of us who have inarguably succeeded, when we look at the faces of those who are subject to these conditions – they are faces that look like ours. So we don’t have the convenience of distance that white people do.”

    Wow, where do I start here. I think you need to take a step back here. How many racist leaps are you making yourself.

    “they are faces that look like ours. So we don’t have the convenience of distance that white people do.”

    Assuming, white people never allow their own to be poor, or white people only care about their own. Or should we assume you don’t care about faces that don’t look like yours? And you only care about your people? And I lived in what you call a disefranchised area for 15 years. It wasn’t just black people and me.

    Comment by ken — October 16, 2007 @ 11:12 PM

    Reply
18. 

    Sorry I submitted without finishing

    There are also many other races in the urban core.

    I probably would have liked to rephrase that other set of questions differently, oh well. My point is why you call white people uncaring and ignorant of your perspective, you also are proving your own lack of sensitivity. I think it would be hard for someone outside of your race to hear this and not feel defensive.

    I may be wrong about this, but I get the feeling if you ever lived in one of the areas you described you may have a change in your perspective. Possibly less racial accusation and more talk of life choices.

    “I am not sure that we will ever see black women equally represented in interracial dating statistics. However, I am quite sure that this is not a goal that we have to achieve in order to be a healthy, whole, equally attractive choice, but rather just a phenomenon that will probably increase – and that’s fine too.”

    I think you will see equal if not more in generations to come if the high school kids are any indication.

    Anyway I am sorry about the course post, I really wanted to reword some of it, but it got away from me.

    Comment by ken — October 16, 2007 @ 11:49 PM

    Reply
19. 

    With respect to this: “even though I did not have a heartfelt regret”. I can understand your not having personal regrets, but awareness of the presence of racism, and the direct and indirect effects of racism on people of color (which many white people do not give a lot of thought to) is a reasonable expectation of one’s mate. Part of what we want from our mates is to be understood. Her concern was a valid one. Have you ever considered that maybe, in some ways, she acquiesced simply because she loves you, and that became more important to her, but not because the issue went away, altogether? I can understand that choice. In all of this, it is important to remember that love will grow in spite of conditions seemingly to the contrary. Who was it that said, “The heart hath reasons that reason itself, knows nothing about.” This expression is poignantly true …

    Moving on, it does not hold true that because white people (men) do not think about racism per se, as much, that they would have less of a hurdle to leap over than black women in interracial dating/marriage. There are very real hurdles – even taboos on “both sides of the fence” that have to be negotiated, even in this day and age. Can you honestly say that you are unaware of some of the disparaging notions held about black women? Granted, these notions do not have the stronghold of days past, but they have not been completely eradicated either – even in the minds of SOME of the most well-intentioned people. Notions that may lie dormant in the far reaches of the mind or even in the subconscious, are often brought to the fore when seriously contemplating interracial dating/marriage. In addition, it is possible to love, even marry someone, and still struggle with the notion that they are racially inferior or superior to you. The human psyche is highly complex, my friend. If we sugar-coat reality, we can never really get to the root of what continues to separate us – not just in the arena of interracial dating, but in the arena of interracial relations.

    I don’t assume that white people never allow their own to be poor, or white people only care about their own. Humanity allows humanity to be poor, and much worse. (In Ethics, this and other injustices are sometimes called “Man’s inhumanity to man” it applies within and across the race/color line, but “man’s kindesses to man” do too. And I know that.

    I think you are cherry picking through my remarks, instead of hearing the whole of what I’m saying.

    None of my statements altogether preclude white people caring about their own, or anyone else, nor would I ever assume any group is completely heartless – that defies common sense, historical and even my own personal experience. Nothing about my posts would indicate that my thinking is that rigid, blind or insensitive. I mentioned in the beginning that I am NOT speaking in absolutes, and that I am aware of the complexities of humanity, so I am not making any leaps. A lot has been said here, but I have continually prefaced my remarks with statements to address the fact that many conditions co-exist, and do not preclude each other.

    I also said previously, “Yes, there have been horrible racial atrocities from the beginning of time – and each atrocity has unique behavioral manifestations among the peoples upon which it was perpetrated. However, for the moment, we are discussing black people” I am fully aware that we are not the only ones who have experienced racial injustice. Focusing on one, does not deny the truth of the other.

    As for “less racial accusation and more talk of choices”, I also said previously:
    “I am NOT saying that history is an excuse not to change; an excuse to be angry; an excuse not to overcome; or an excuse not to take ownership of your own destiny, decide what you want out of life and go get it.” Clearly, I promote moving on and making the right choices. At the same time, if we deny the historical events that led to the current state of affairs, what is left is to assume that a particular group of people is inherently flawed and prone to self destruction, and that external forces have nothing to do with it. Do you believe that? If you do, what follows then, is notions of natural superiority for some groups, and inferiority for others.

    It is undeniable that people of color are under-represented in areas of privilege, and over-represented in impoverished or under-privileged areas (and need I mention the percentage of people of color in the prison population?). So, we don’t have the distance that white people do, when we look at those faces. That does not mean that white people are completely insensitive, nor did I imply that. (Again, one does not preclude the other.)

    As for who lives in disenfranchised areas, I know that the residents are not exclusively black people/people of color. However, what color are the majorities, and why is that?

    As for what high school kids are doing – certainly, with exposure to each other, interracial dating and marriage will increase. However, I don’t think that at some point more people will date/marry interracially than marry within their own race.

    I also said previously, “I am not giving any of the things I have mentioned more than their due weight and consideration.” I have addressed many contributing factors that cannot be ignored.

    My point remains – more is required to sway the statistics, than black women just deciding to be more open to interracial dating. We are not the sole drivers of this phenomenon.

    Comment by Nina — October 17, 2007 @ 4:44 AM

    Reply
20. 

    Nina:

    “As for what high school kids are doing – certainly, with exposure to each other, interracial dating and marriage will increase. However, I don’t think that at some point more people will date/marry interracially than marry within their own race.”

    They don’t have to.

    Drop the one drop rule (which appears to slowly be happening) and remember the fact that most biracial people marry “blacks”.

    Blacks are already 20% white, on average genetically.

    Do the math.

    If interracial marriage keeps increase…even if 20% of blacks end up marrying out and continue to for 2-3 generations…besides recent immigrants the average person will continue to whiten…this has been happening but at a much slower rate due to intense racism.

    How white do you think someone has to be before they are Wentworth Miller or Rashida Jones…who are basically “passing” daily without doing anything. they say they have “black fathers” but reality is there fathers are not “pure West African” not even close…

    If Rashida Jones marries a black man, there kids will be more white than the “average black man”…

    This cycle over a period of decades (I’ve calculated about 250-300 years) will make the average black person on the street 75-90% white. Depending on how the genes fall a 75% white person can look pure white…after that…well…its pointless to keep insisting you are “black”.

    To make it simple.

    Black people are a circle that is not closed. You keep trickling in white blood over time the circle changes.

    I should say that this won’t happen evenly. Lower class blacks will be the last to be effected because they are the most isolated.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — October 17, 2007 @ 11:25 AM

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21. 

    I think we’re well beyond the original discussion.

    This comment, “the average person will continue to whiten…this has been happening but at a much slower rate due to intense racism.” underscores my only point – that there are other, strongly mitigating factors (racism) that contribute to the gender distribution among those who date interracially. Black women’s decision, ALONE, will not stem the tide of racism at work in the interracial dating arena.

    I wouldn’t disagree with anything in your last post. I’m well aware that the genetic constituency of the “black” population continues to evolve, and that lower class, isolated blacks will be the last effected/last to evolve.

    Comment by Nina — October 17, 2007 @ 12:34 PM

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22. 

    On a broader and completely different note, nice website. I took a look around, and sent the link to a few others.

    

    Comment by Nina — October 17, 2007 @ 2:27 PM

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23. 

    Thanks…always try to get the word out. I have a lot of interests and my site reflects that.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — October 17, 2007 @ 3:26 PM

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24. 

    Nina,

    “Part of what we want from our mates is to be understood. Her concern was a valid one. Have you ever considered that maybe, in some ways, she acquiesced simply because she loves you, and that became more important to her, but not because the issue went away, altogether?”

    I agree this was part of her concern, but I think her views also adjusted a little, and probalby my ability to explain, along with just being more trusting of me.

    “I think you are cherry picking through my remarks, instead of hearing the whole of what I’m saying.”

    You are partly right, I had initital reaction, I probably would have took back had my mouse not hoverd above the submit comment while I typed. But it went out before I had a chance to reconsider.

    We were on a relation discussion, so I wasn’t ready challenge the other aspects of your uneven representations of the disenfrachised you have brought up. Well I was ready but I didn’t think this would have been the right place. So I was looking for a summary sentence my opinion on how deep you looked into the disenfrachised discussion. It wasn’t a very good approach, and I apologize for the grabbing out of context.

    “Can you honestly say that you are unaware of some of the disparaging notions held about black women? Granted, these notions do not have the stronghold of days past, but they have not been completely eradicated either – even in the minds of SOME of the most well-intentioned people. Notions that may lie dormant in the far reaches of the mind or even in the subconscious, are often brought to the fore when seriously contemplating interracial dating/marriage.”

    I think I can say yes here. I only grew up around white people, I never really had any delaings with black woman. Only when I moved to the “disenfranchised area”, where I could afford my first home, did I have dealings with black woman, I guess also I dealt with black woman customers, but there wasn’t a stereotypical common essence I attached to them. I think the stereotyping seems to originate in black circles, and like most whites we aren’t privy to these discussions.

    Now I am not saying there are white men who are aware of black woman sterotypes, but I think you would be surprised how little of them have preconceived ideas.

    “My point remains – more is required to sway the statistics, than black women just deciding to be more open to interracial dating. We are not the sole drivers of this phenomenon.”

    Ok, but I hope you do pause before you calculate your value as a black woman from the perspective of the other race.

    Comment by ken — October 17, 2007 @ 5:50 PM

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25. 

    stereotyping seems to originate in black circles?

    how [few white men] have preconceived ideas?

    pause before I calculate my value as a black woman from the perspective of the other race?

    You are ill-equipped to reason. There is no point in responding to you any further.

    Comment by Nina — October 18, 2007 @ 7:03 AM

    Reply
26. 

    White Men make Dark Skinned Sista’s feel Beautiful

    I am an attractive, professionally successful, highly intelligent and vibrant dark complexion black woman in my late 40’s. I’ve recently divorced after 20+ yrs of marriage. I have deliberately acquired a focused effort to live my life on my own terms this time around. As a result I have become very introspective which led to a startling conclusion about myself, ergo this Blog.

    I am very attracted to white men!

    In questioning my motives or to at least get a glimpse into my rationale I have stumbled upon a very alarming thought…

    I love the way the complimentary attention given by white men provides me sense of power and vindication. It’s as if receiving attention from handsome, intelligent and successful white men nullifies the lack of attention and sometimes rejection from comparable black men.

    The attention I received from seriously interested white men has always been in the form of kind, sincere and courageous compliments about my physical beauty, intellect and exciting fun-filled personality. This is very attractive and because white men convey it so easily and often I have begun to trust the purity of their intent.

    Albeit this revelation is somewhat freeing….It also makes me sad.

    I was raised in a predominately white community but always had black boyfriends. Being a dark skinned sista’ I had to deal with my share of rejections from black guys who had been brained washed with the light-skin-is-better skin residual slave mentality. I even created a self-defensive mechanism which allowed me to herald my extreme intellectual gifts while downplaying any reference to physical beauty.

    Interestingly, while in college I briefly dated a white guy who would repeatedly tell me I was absolutely beautiful. Well of course I just thought he wanted to get in my panties. I believed the hype “all white men secretly wanted to bed a black woman”. Boy, was I wrong. This man wanted me. He loved my intelligence and wit, my smile, my laugh, my deep mocha smooth skin, my interesting conversation, my confidence, my drive and direction…He liked me! But I would not allow myself to succumb to his advances because I had serious racial hangups. Silly me….

    I was waiting for the black man who would find in me the good gifts God has given me. One who would lovingly bestow upon me the compliments he was moved to verbalize because of what he saw when he viewed me and what he felt when he was in my presence or I was on his mind. But that black prince charming never appeared. Even when I finally decided to marry the black man I loved I had still not found him. Unfortunately my choice of a husband was also a man who was not easily given to compliments but often criticized (hence the divorce).

    Now 30 years after my first encounter with a white man I am single again and dating white men as a preference. Don’t misunderstand though…I still am attracted to a tall deep dark chocolate man. But when I date an intelligent professional successful good looking black men I find myself reducing my expectations. I don’t expect to receive regularly verbalized or otherwise displayed complimentary adorations of my physical beauty or any other attributes. This should not be so.

    Am I alone in this dilemma?

    Signed..

    Compliment Me, The Dark Skinned Sista’

    Comment by Dark and Lovely — November 4, 2007 @ 5:26 PM

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27. 

    Compliment Me,

    The over-arching question is one of long term value. Are you a novelty to these highly complimentary white men? An experiment? (I’m not saying that you are… I’m just asking…)

    If you wanted to marry one of these white men you are dating, would he consider marrying you?

    You mentiond that you “choice of a husband was also a man who was not easily given to compliments but often criticized ” This may have made you needy for compliments/attention. Most men can detect when a woman is needy – and some will take advantage of it. (No, I am not villainizing men, but its true). An overwhelming need for male attention and compliments can blind you to the whole truth about what someone wants from you, why he wants it from you, and what he really thinks about you.

    For the record, I am not villainizing white men. There are men of every color capable of sincerity, the desire for love and companionship, and an appreciation of beauty in all its different forms.

    There are black men who will see that you are beautiful, and will tell you so.

    Date the men who want to date you for right and healthy reasons. If you are honest with yourself, you know when that is, or is not, the case.

    Comment by Nina — November 11, 2007 @ 6:37 PM

    Reply
28. 

    After reading her post I thought about how much I compliment my wife. I notice if I’m upset about something I compliment her more because I appreciate her being there. Usually I tease her in a child like way.

    I also rarely compliment people and do not take compliments well from others. It is really not my nature to be like that.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — November 11, 2007 @ 7:31 PM

    Reply
29. 

    Can’t say I compliment my wife either. Sometimes a compliment might slip out of my mouth, but generally it only happens when I sense the person needs it. Which would be sort of what Nina is saying. Some poeple hand out compliments more than others, but it isn’t a race thing.

    I think another thing “Compliment me” might consider is the men she was dating in her 20’s have learned a thing or two by the time their in their 40’s. I sat in the bar many times and watched many women melt as they were fed compliments. Enjoy the attention, and many guys probably are sincere, but really only time brings the truth out.

    Comment by ken — November 11, 2007 @ 9:18 PM

    Reply
30. 

    Well after reading the comments in depth, I have found that we need to show love to one another even more. I ama black male who was born in britain, and in the city of London. I have seen people get hurt for dating a white girl or even murdered for dating one. There is institutionalised racism in europe and the whole world, but you know what? Though I have seen a lot of hurt, I understand why it happens. Just looking at the comments that have been made here about schools, I can say that many of the black people that put their kids in school, they don’t always have an input into reading and sitting down with their kids and talking with them. The materialism is what is pronounced in this society and though they say that they want the best for their children, a lot of them are colonised still. Its a shame, as a black male, I always felt inadequate in church that God is suppose to reside in. I wasn’t allowed to dream unless my peers would allow it and then when I was divorced and at the age of 36 I realised that it wasn’t for me. Sometimes blacks dating out is a good thing as we can learn about others, as it is not the colour that is the problem, but the perception of colour stemming from history can be the problem. I have seen black women date out and I don’t mind it, as long as they date the person because they love them, and not to make a statement of intent in the abrasive attitude that he, the man is better because he is not black. Coming from a west indian background i have seen how people in my family devalue black in order to be accepted by the mainstream and I don’t see no other nationality do it, but then again that’s my experience, there are probably white people that do trash their own, if you include politics.

    I think that I realised that people want to be loved, and though different cultures may have different perceptions of what is required, I think that most people want to be respected and shown fairness and that’s not always the case when colour is involved. I love to see mixed relationships and I at one time wanted that, but I would rather be with love for that person than just making a statement by being with her and not for the right reasons. People are attracted for different reasons, but I wouldn’t make money determine who I was with, I would make love the difference, and many black men aren’t taught to show their feelings, they are taught that it is a sign of weakness to show love., as they were not shown love at all at home, only by way of providing money or food on the table, and also the stem of education acheived. Divorce in Europe is high, and there are a lot of single black mothers, some not the fault of their own, but some are determined to do with the man and raise the child by themselves and then when the child gets unruly, then they blame the father. But that’s another story, but I grew up in a family like that as well, and I am an only son, with four sisters, who all have children that are from different fathers. My sister is dating a white man, and he’s a brother as far as I am concerned, but I hope that she is dating him for the right reasons and not for the reasons of affluence, as he is a nice guy, I really like him.

    From the economic perspective, there arent many blacks in the corridor of power here, so I see many of them suck up to the caucasion male and that is a problem and I don’t like that, not because you should disrespect anyone, but we are equal, and God if you believe in him, made us that way, so why should I look up to another colour. I hope that people marry who they love, and if they like their skin, as long as it is because its them that they love, no problem, but if it is to make a statement, then that relationship is in problems before it starts.

    Comment by Ian — November 17, 2007 @ 5:52 AM

    Reply
31. 

    Ian:

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I agree with much of what you have said…
    “that’s my experience, there are probably white people that do trash their own, if you include politics.”

    I can not speak for the UK, but here in America it is almost an industry to make fun of poor white people and for poor white people to debase themselves in public. We have “Blue Collar TV”, which is white comedians making fun of rural, poorly educated whites as inbred “trash”. It is not uncommon for middle class or upper-class whites to call poor whites “white trash”, “trailer park trash”, “rednecks”, “hillbillies”. There was even a country song called “redneck woman’ talking about how she is proud to be a low class white woman. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30V5vnYHzk

    I spent the first 12 years of my life in rural Eastern Ohio, and I have seen poor whites treated brutally.

    The difference between that type of class discrimination and race is that it is not based on “family name” or race it is based on behavior. If the “lowest white man” became educated, changed his accent, dressed proper, and modified some of his behaviors he will be “white” like every other white person. The power of being white, in my mind, is that you get the benefit of the doubt in almost every situation. You can be the dumbest person or the smartest and people rarely prejudge you unless you are (weird or trashy in appearance). Minorities get stereotyped according to how white people perceive their group and blacks are usually judged by a minority of their group whereas other are judged by the best.

    For example, people do not judge Chinese or Indians by the lowest of their group. Most Indians and Chinese are quite ignorant, poor, etc. India also has a fairly high crime rate, but in the West we do not see that. We see a select group immigrate who are successful. I have lived in China and I can tell you that the average Chinese person in this world does not live significantly better than the average person in South Africa, maybe even worse, but that is not what we commonly see. Going back to blacks, in the U.S., 20-25% of us are poor, 18% have a university degree, however the majority of educated and poor blacks live in major urban areas. About 7% of whites live in poverty and about 30% have university degrees. The big difference is, the vast majority of poor whites live in rural areas, so they are not seen. This definitely has an effect. I see poor blacks all the time but I only see poor whites when I travel by car to another city.
    If I were white, I might think, every other black person was “ignorant and poor”.

    One thing I can tell you about the American experience is that no one will respect you unless you make them.

    Blacks in the UK, from what I know are not as populous as black Americans or as unified and organized politically (as you have divergent origins). Black Americans are fairly unified and have institutions with deep roots. This is problematic, but it is also good in that we “forced” whites to show some respect on a national level with is why we have blacks in high positions (Secretary of State, Joint Chief of Staff (head of the army), CEOs of Fortune 500s, etc). Does this mean we have reached equilibrium with whites? No, not yet, but we are closer than a lot of blacks that live in other Western nations and that came with a lot fighting and even death. There were many people who “disappeared” in the civil rights movement, and you know many were brutalized. There have been (and are) many court cases that still call out racism. This is an ongoing thing but ever generation it is a little easier and the quality of life for most blacks is better. Racist whites resent this, but oh well, what else is new? Whenever you shake up a “norm” even if that norm is someone putting their foot in your ass, it will upset people, overtime most people will get used to the changed norm though and those that don’t will eventually die anyway.

    I do have a question for you…how are biracial people treated in the UK and how do they identify?

    Comment by Dragon Horse — November 17, 2007 @ 9:34 AM

    Reply
32. 

    Hello Dragon Horse,

    How are you today? I hope the family is well. Thanks for answering my post. To answer your question how mixed raced people get treated, it depends on 1) Where they live, 2. What kind of family they have, for example, if they look on others equally regardless of colour. I personally have seen that black people are more willing to accept the mixed race child, but then again, if you ask some people that are mixed race, and my girlfriend is, but she would want to be called a black woman, they might have a different take on it, however my girlfriend said that she didn’t notice any difference growing up, but she has always wanted to be with black men, but her sister who is mixed as well, has always loved white men, and he is white and his father is jewish, but we all get along well. But to answer your question, most of them are seen with blacks as black and if they are in a predominately white area, then they mostly identify with them. Some may be confused, but I think that it would be best to speak to them about it. Also in many of the cities, such as liverpool, who has the oldest black community in britain, as the slaves built the city and they were first to arrive here in the ports of liverpool, they have a big mixed race community or they are ingrained then again with blacks or the white side of their family. Also in London, I think that you know that it is so diverse that no one bats an eyelid where race is concerned, only in the areas that are predominately white and affluent and money orientated, also because britain has a class system, it causes some problems with colour as well. Anything you want to know about here, from my perspective, I will gladly share with you and inform you the best I can, but as far as I can see, they get mainly accepted in the black community.

    Comment by Ian — November 18, 2007 @ 8:35 AM

    Reply
33. 

    In the states we do have class issues, but I do not believe them as entrenched as in most of Europe (despite some people’s best efforts historically, starting with Alexander Hamilton, who ironically (or maybe not) grew up low class). We also have historic race issues from the beginning.

    In America the more money and education one has, the more likely one (speaking specifically of blacks) is to marry whites, live with whites, work with a lot of whites; to a point. I think in the past most bi-racial and multi-racial people were products of various types of relationships with whites that were secret/frowned on, etc. The resulting child would grow up with blacks and adopt a African American cultural identity because that is all they knew.

    In the last 25 years or so that has begun to change. I believe this is because many blacks who now marry white people are middle class blacks who live in predominately white areas. I also believe white to be less racist than in the past, so many of the resulting children of these marriages are growing up with whites more than blacks on a daily basis. Due to our history, “white is pure” or near pure, so unless they look like Wentworth Miller, Rashida Jones, or Jennifer Beals they can not say they are white, but they do not feel “just black” either, so they adopt a bi-racial or multi-racial identity.

    This has caused some strife in the black community as most of us are mixed to some extent, although not immediately (as in having a wholly white parent), so some blacks believe it will create a rift in black political unity if people of mix race identify with whites and not just blacks. My response is that people should be allowed to identify as they choose regardless of how society may see them. If I lived in a town where 9/10 people thought I was a “stupid n1@@er” I do not believe I should regard myself by the majority opinion although it might serve me well to be aware of it. Also this is 2007, not 1967, and even during the civil rights movements peak most blacks did not actively participate. Most blacks did not march or protest anything, some people forget that. Many were just scared of being hurt or losing their jobs. Today, most blacks who are middle class do not do anything to help “disadvantage blacks” who are not their family so I do not know why people fear “bi-racial” people will not be “as engaged” when most people “are not engaged”.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — November 18, 2007 @ 10:38 AM

    Reply
34. 

    Hello Dragon Horse,

    How are you today? Sorry it took so long to write back, as I hold this topic dear to my heart. I believe in the concept of love in action, and I won’t let any colour stop me from seeking that. Its good that we talk about these things because some of what you say is very true, not only of american blacks but here too in britain. However there are black people that are still fighting the injustices that exist between themselves and also with others that refuse to see them as equals. Yes it still exists in churches, and though the concept of christianity teaches virtue for all, its not always practised at all. I have seen evidences of this practise, where a preacher said to his daughter not to bring home her boyfriend as he is too dark, how sad is that, and yes that was in 2005 here in britain.

    We have to fight this confined thought still as time don’t stand still, and we have to answer to each other to teach our children that we are all equal and divinely special because we all exist here on earth.

    I realised this when I was a grown man, and all the fables that I was told, I found that we can love other races, and I saw more people with the issues of love overcoming war, that I decided that when I recovered from divorce, I would indeed find love with whoever wanted me, I had preferences, but I didn’t hold it against anyone if they dated their own race, as I looked at the conditioning of their mind and saw why people thought the way that they did, but I did find happiness eventually.

    Some of us refuse to accept change, and I would have follow that way too, if I didn’t see and think about the concourse of life without bounderies of evil.

    I am far happier to see mixed relationships and long may they continue, for we are not superior to each other, but equal and one my brother.

    Ian

    Comment by Ian — November 24, 2007 @ 8:06 AM

    Reply
35. 

    no reply then brother? keep this site going its good to talk about these things, it helps people understand each other.

    Comment by Ian — December 1, 2007 @ 8:17 AM

    Reply
36. 

    Ian:

    I don’t have much left to say on the issue to be honest. It is a topic of interest, but not something I dwell on. I honestly think that in time it will work itself out. We are just in a time of upheaval, eventually their will be a calm…then another peak of upheaval. I suppose we are on the down slide of the upheaval right now, but it has not settled yet. Well that is what I hope anyway.

    Comment by Dragon Horse — December 1, 2007 @ 9:48 PM

    Reply
37. 

    I think this thread is fascinating and has opened my mind and stretched some of my own thoughts on the subject. I am white and grew up on a farm in the countryside of Pennsylvania. The only black person I ever saw in real life went to school with us and he was adopted by a white couple. I consider myself conservative in some areas (mostly religion and anything that goes with it) and yet liberal in other areas. My parents raised us in the evangelical Christian church and we were always taught that God created and loved us all equally and therefore we should do the same. But how do you understand your ability to do such a thing when you are never given the opportunity in real life. I remember the day that I announced to my grandfather that I signed up for the Army. I asked if he had any advice for me before heading off to boot camp since he was a veteran himself. His only reply was, “Watch your back for the ni##ers.” I asked him what he meant and he told me that I would
    know what he meant when I got there. I literally went to boot camp wondering what he meant and prepared to be on the look out for whatever it was. The only thing that I found out is that there are wonderful people of every race and then there are some not-so-wonderful people of every race. I don’t think most of the problems have to do with race as much as it does lack of intelligence or respect. I moved on in life with the attitude that I would deal with every person on an individual basis no matter what. I’ve found that not looking for something based on the way it looks frees me to find what I’m looking for in the darndest places!!! I have been happily married to a Black woman for 15 years. We have 3 wonderful children who are very smart, beautiful and well adjusted socially. I wasn’t looking for that to happen…it just did. My wife seems to be my completer, and vice versa. She teaches me so much in areas that I need to grow and ironically, the areas she’s weak in are the areas I teach her. Most people look at us and their first reaction is usually, “How in the world are you 2 together?!”. It’s true…we are very different outwardly. We even ask ourselves sometimes how is that we hooked up. We of course believe and know in our hearts that God had us designed for each other but it still makes us chuckle sometimes because we are so different. But yet, we are so alike. My heart goes out to anyone that isn’t finding in life that which they are looking for based on something as trivial as skin color. I respect people’s right to find a mate within their own “race” just as much as I respect people’s right to not let “race” be an issue and marry/date outside of it. I was looking for a wonderful woman to spend my life with who would make a wonderful mother, lover and soulmate. I joke that if she would have been purple and came from Mars then that would have been fine with me. I don’t understand racism and don’t pretend to. My wife has done so much to “educate” me on the finer points of being rejected because of skin color. I remember travelling in Biloxi, MS and trying to get a motel room at 1 AM. The receptionist was a petite, pretty older woman with that wonderful southern drawl. She told me they had a room available and was taking my credit card information and giving me the keys when all of a sudden my wife entered the lobby. As my wife approached the woman’s demeanor changed and when she realized I had the audacity to married to her she announced that she had made a terrible mistake and our room was being renovated and wasn’t available and they conveniently had no other rooms available. I guess she couldn’t handle thinking about all of the impure sinning we would do in her cherished southern motel bed!!! Needless to say, it was those kinds of incidents that made me scratch my head and say, “What?!”. My wife has educated me over the years how and where to look for common areas where we will have “trouble”. It’s ashame but it’s real. Real stupid as far as I’m concerned but it is real. I still do not claim to be an expert on racism nor do we think of ourselves as poster children for interracial marriage. If you can find what you’re looking for at your favorite store, then buy it. But if your store doesn’t carry what you’re looking for, and they’re not willing to special order it for you, then you might have to go shopping at a new store. I do think interracial marriage is a challenge but it such a fun one. And every time something attacks us or tries to come between us it just draws us closer and makes our bond that much stronger. I look forward to growing old with my best friend.

    Comment by Scott — December 6, 2007 @ 7:18 PM

    Reply
38. 

    BTW, thanks for such a deep debate. It is interesting to go below the surface and scratch some of the heavier topics. Nina blew my mind with a lot of what she is saying. It is fascinating and I want to say “Thank you” to her, because you have caused me to push my heart and mind further in areas that I, sometimes get complacent in. You are very intelligent but not in an intimidating way. I sure hope that you will sometime in the near future meet a special someone that will give you everything you deserve (no matter what color he is!). Do not settle for anything less than that what you are looking for and deserve. And keep these posts going. I truly believe that talking and dialog is good. When people don’t talk and isolate themselves that’s when we never learn to respect each other.

    Comment by Scott — December 6, 2007 @ 7:31 PM

    Reply
39. 

    Scott:

    Welcome…you know, it is sad, but it does reveal the extreme social distance, that many people live in, in this country. We do not know much about each other. I think to a certain extent we are already balkanized.

    My family has been here, as far as I can tell, since the 1820’s, but likely longer. Most African Americans, since legal importation of slaves stopped about that time, and I’m still shocked when I encounter white people completely ignorant of black people who they live right next to or go to school with, even down to their hair care needs. I’m also shocked by how, despite living in a nation that is 66% white, so many black people have little real personal contact with white people on a daily basis.

    Its a sad thing, but when I read stories like yours I feel a tad more encouraged. I really wish we were one nationality, a real nationality, but I will never live to see that, it seems some are more intent on maintaining their hatred, ignorance, purity, etc than learning about and loving their fellow citizen. Who knows, maybe this is just a temporary phase and people will look back on America’s history in 2,000 years and see that it passed on to something else (before it finished…everything must end).

    Comment by Dragon Horse — December 6, 2007 @ 8:07 PM

    Reply
40. 

    I applaud you scott, I am so glad that you have found what you wanted and I couldn’t put it a better way, I would implore you to read a book called love race and religion, and its good, as I have ordered a copy of it. I love to see interracial marriages and for the right reason called love. We are all equal and we must let love win. I am a black man, and I don’t care if people of different hues want to love each other. Its fantastic and as a man to a friend, I wish you and your family all the best and long may the love between you and your wife continue.

    Peace

    Comment by Ian — December 7, 2007 @ 1:47 PM

    Reply
41. 

    Please enough with the interracial marriage will cure racial strife drivel already.
    Everything is about race isn’t it people?
    I’m not entirely naive though I consider myself fortunate to not experience racism directly.

    Every time I see interracial couples it’s always conflict this and conflict that.
    Well I’ll stick to my own race and not have to suffer this unnecessary strife and sure it makes for some nauseating melodrama and romance with the same insipid Blacks and Whites need to respect each other’s thang bilge.

    Let me give you an example of what I’m ranting about.
    On some dating show this black chick takes her white boyfriend( whom I’ll refer to as mayonnaise yes the nasty brand helmanns) to some museum that shows an exhibit of what happened to blacks and her oh so sensitive mayonnaise his reaction seemed rather scripted!

    This drivel would have made my head explode of mayonnaise was into hiphop then again I wouldn’t call him mayonnaise I’d call Shaka Faka yes I’m being stupid but I have to laugh over I’m gonna become a cold narcissist and harbor a hatred for all of humanity except myself!

    Comment by Chilerkle — December 25, 2007 @ 2:32 AM

    Reply
42. 

    Also the natural next question is: ‘What’s if Worth?’

    Comment by Vintage Electric Guitar — August 13, 2008 @ 1:58 PM

    Reply
43. 

    I need to correct this, as I misrepresented the stat.

    About 25% of blacks cohabitation are with people of other races, about 85% of them being male, and about half of those interracial cohabitation are with whites.

    Sorry, I just wanted to be accurate. I posted another study on this on this site, but here is another was that is slightly similar but I believe the numbers a little less than the first study.

    http://www.allacademic.com/one/www/www/index.php?cmd=www_search&offset=0&limit=5&multi_search_search_mode=publication&multi_search_publication_fulltext_mod=fulltext&textfield_submit=true&search_module=multi_search&search=Search&search_field=title_idx&fulltext_search=Who+Interracially+Cohabits%3F+An+Exploratory+Study+on+Interracial+Cohabitation+between+Asian+Americans+and+Whites

    Comment by Dragon Horse — February 25, 2009 @ 11:39 AM

    Reply

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