The Postnational Monitor
Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results | Jan 24th 2008
This is not shocking, I’ve seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so.
The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred.
Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered “barbarian” referred to as the various types of “Yue” (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian).
As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves “Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People” and talk of giving their children “Tong names”. They also still refer to their province and themselves as “Yue” to this day. I’m guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the “Viet or Yue” people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, I’m guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not.
Also, “South,” in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam.
Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples.
To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do.
This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines.
—————–
Hat tip to Dienekes:
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998
A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
Fuzhong Xue et al.
Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.
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Austroasiatic is diferent from Austronesian. The Malay group of languages (Malay, Bahasa Indonesian, Tagalog), Taiwan aboriginal and Polynesian belong to the Austronesian group. Whilst the Austroasiatic languages include Vietnamese and Cambodian. Laotian and Thai belong to the Kam-Thai group that include China’s Zhuang and Dong minorities. Miao is not related to Thai or Laotian.
Comment by BBC — February 1, 2008 @ 5:19 PM
BBC:
You are correct. I will make the change. From what I read it says that the Miao is actually classified by most linguists as a Sino-Tibetan language, but that is in dispute. Some are saying it is a type of isolate.
Comment by Dragon Horse — February 1, 2008 @ 10:15 PM
[...] Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results 24 01 2008 This is not shocking, Ive seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so. The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred. Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered barbarian referred to as the various types of Yue (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian). As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People and talk of giving their children Tong names. They also still refer to their province and themselves as Yue to this day. Im guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the Viet or Yue people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, Im guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not. Also, South, in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam. Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples. To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do. This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines. European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998 A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages Fuzhong Xue et al. Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of northsouth division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed. Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results The Postnational Monitor [...]
Pingback by Attack on Chinese Border Post - Page 4 - World Affairs Board — August 7, 2008 @ 4:12 AM
Actually, I agree most of what the author said… except I think the southern chinese turned out to be closer genetically to the ancient chinese because of the Mongolian invasion as the author mentioned. During that period, most of the old chinese were forced to move south. So I am not surprised at all that the northern chineses are genetically more similarly to Japanese and Korean. Actually from the linguistic perspective, the southern chinese dialects (like cantonese) have preserved more characteristics of the old chinese. But I want to emphasize that I am not saying that the northern chineses are not chinese nor even Han chinese. Han chineses have always a very vague definition and china is always a very intermixing society. China is united by culture (especially language) instead of species. Actually a very interesting speculation of why china didn’t split into multiple nations as Europe did is that the chinese language is not phonetic. The hieroglyphs based written language ensures chineses to be mutually understandable and unified over the years.
Comment by S Cheng — June 5, 2009 @ 3:47 PM
Well,please allow me to disagree with you.
You said the southern chinese turned out to be closer genetically to the ancient chinese because of the Mongolian invasion as the author mentioned, during that period, most of the old chinese were forced to move south.
So, you bassically think that the northern chinese are sinized from northern barbarian, such us mongol, xianbei, turkic, etc, while the southern chinese are the pure chinese.
But how do you explain the genetic eveidence mention in the article ?
This is the sentences what I meant
[ A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.}
It means northerner and southerner share the same Y-chromosome, while the mtDNA obviously different. It means, the northerner and southerner share a common ancestor from patrilineal line but not in matrilineal line
If you right, the northern were sinized, and the southern were pure chinese. both of Y-chromosome and mtDNA would be different.
So, I have to tell you, this evidence doesn’t support your theory at all.
Comment by John Chen — June 24, 2009 @ 5:34 AM
well, actually I just wanna say that southern chinese have some unique position. They share common ancestor from patrlilineal line with the northern ancestor but they do share common ancestor from matrilineal line with the southeast asian. It just like somebody have 2 halfsibling, one from his father side (same Y-chromosome) and the other from his mother side (same mtDNA). So, nothings pure here, because actually all mongoloid derived from one source.
Comment by John Chen — June 24, 2009 @ 5:42 AM
“A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.”
It means MtDNA of northern chinese and southern chinese are different, while the Y-chromosome of northern and southern chinese are the same. So, it doesn’t mean they are not related, at least they share common forefather.
Comment by John Chen — June 24, 2009 @ 5:20 AM
John:
I did not say that Southern people were closer to the original Han. The Cantonese language does reflect the “Middle Chinese” language that was spoken during the Tang Dynasty far more than Mandarin.
That does not necessarily have anything to do with genes. It means Chinese elites from further North went south and enforced their dialect or at least large parts of it on locals. I can think of many situations around the world were local populations speak a language not necessarily native to them because of strong influence from outside.
“It means MtDNA of northern chinese and southern chinese are different, while the Y-chromosome of northern and southern chinese are the same. So, it doesn’t mean they are not related, at least they share common forefather.”
I never said anything different.
Comment by Dragon Horse — June 24, 2009 @ 6:46 AM
If I recall Cantonese Y is not exactly same. Cantonese is mostly similar to N chinese from sources I seen, but it is still not same being about 1/3 or so like Viets
Comment by Billy W — June 25, 2009 @ 4:03 PM