This is not shocking, I’ve seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so.
The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred.
Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered “barbarian” referred to as the various types of “Yue” (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian).
As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves “Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People” and talk of giving their children “Tong names”. They also still refer to their province and themselves as “Yue” to this day. I’m guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the “Viet or Yue” people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, I’m guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not.
Also, “South,” in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam.
Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples.
To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do.
This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines.
—————–
Hat tip to Dienekes:
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998
A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
Fuzhong Xue et al.
Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.
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February 1, 2008 at 5:19 PM
BBC
Austroasiatic is diferent from Austronesian. The Malay group of languages (Malay, Bahasa Indonesian, Tagalog), Taiwan aboriginal and Polynesian belong to the Austronesian group. Whilst the Austroasiatic languages include Vietnamese and Cambodian. Laotian and Thai belong to the Kam-Thai group that include China’s Zhuang and Dong minorities. Miao is not related to Thai or Laotian.
February 1, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Dragon Horse
BBC:
You are correct. I will make the change. From what I read it says that the Miao is actually classified by most linguists as a Sino-Tibetan language, but that is in dispute. Some are saying it is a type of isolate.
August 7, 2008 at 4:12 AM
Attack on Chinese Border Post - Page 4 - World Affairs Board
[...] Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results 24 01 2008 This is not shocking, Ive seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so. The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred. Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered barbarian referred to as the various types of Yue (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian). As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People and talk of giving their children Tong names. They also still refer to their province and themselves as Yue to this day. Im guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the Viet or Yue people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, Im guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not. Also, South, in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam. Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples. To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do. This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines. European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998 A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages Fuzhong Xue et al. Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of northsouth division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed. Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results The Postnational Monitor [...]
June 5, 2009 at 3:47 PM
S Cheng
Actually, I agree most of what the author said… except I think the southern chinese turned out to be closer genetically to the ancient chinese because of the Mongolian invasion as the author mentioned. During that period, most of the old chinese were forced to move south. So I am not surprised at all that the northern chineses are genetically more similarly to Japanese and Korean. Actually from the linguistic perspective, the southern chinese dialects (like cantonese) have preserved more characteristics of the old chinese. But I want to emphasize that I am not saying that the northern chineses are not chinese nor even Han chinese. Han chineses have always a very vague definition and china is always a very intermixing society. China is united by culture (especially language) instead of species. Actually a very interesting speculation of why china didn’t split into multiple nations as Europe did is that the chinese language is not phonetic. The hieroglyphs based written language ensures chineses to be mutually understandable and unified over the years.
June 24, 2009 at 5:34 AM
John Chen
Well,please allow me to disagree with you.
You said the southern chinese turned out to be closer genetically to the ancient chinese because of the Mongolian invasion as the author mentioned, during that period, most of the old chinese were forced to move south.
So, you bassically think that the northern chinese are sinized from northern barbarian, such us mongol, xianbei, turkic, etc, while the southern chinese are the pure chinese.
But how do you explain the genetic eveidence mention in the article ?
This is the sentences what I meant
[ A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.}
It means northerner and southerner share the same Y-chromosome, while the mtDNA obviously different. It means, the northerner and southerner share a common ancestor from patrilineal line but not in matrilineal line
If you right, the northern were sinized, and the southern were pure chinese. both of Y-chromosome and mtDNA would be different.
So, I have to tell you, this evidence doesn’t support your theory at all.
June 24, 2009 at 5:42 AM
John Chen
well, actually I just wanna say that southern chinese have some unique position. They share common ancestor from patrlilineal line with the northern ancestor but they do share common ancestor from matrilineal line with the southeast asian. It just like somebody have 2 halfsibling, one from his father side (same Y-chromosome) and the other from his mother side (same mtDNA). So, nothings pure here, because actually all mongoloid derived from one source.
June 24, 2009 at 5:20 AM
John Chen
“A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.”
It means MtDNA of northern chinese and southern chinese are different, while the Y-chromosome of northern and southern chinese are the same. So, it doesn’t mean they are not related, at least they share common forefather.
June 24, 2009 at 6:46 AM
Dragon Horse
John:
I did not say that Southern people were closer to the original Han. The Cantonese language does reflect the “Middle Chinese” language that was spoken during the Tang Dynasty far more than Mandarin.
That does not necessarily have anything to do with genes. It means Chinese elites from further North went south and enforced their dialect or at least large parts of it on locals. I can think of many situations around the world were local populations speak a language not necessarily native to them because of strong influence from outside.
“It means MtDNA of northern chinese and southern chinese are different, while the Y-chromosome of northern and southern chinese are the same. So, it doesn’t mean they are not related, at least they share common forefather.”
I never said anything different.
June 25, 2009 at 4:03 PM
Billy W
If I recall Cantonese Y is not exactly same. Cantonese is mostly similar to N chinese from sources I seen, but it is still not same being about 1/3 or so like Viets
August 19, 2009 at 8:45 PM
trex
wrong, cantonese are nto sinized yue people…..according to their y-chromosome. cantonese are still closely related to northen han
but as for their motherline(MTDNA) they tend be more closer to the southern natives of south china
which means cantonese are the descendants of the Qin soldiers who were ordered to conquer south china and looted their women reproduced them
so basically cantonese are han
not as what you called them sinized vietnamese….
August 19, 2009 at 9:31 PM
Dragon Horse
Well, I know Chinese tend to count ethnicity by the father’s origin, but biologically this means many Cantonese speakers are close to 1/2 biologically Yue (Viet)…you can say they are Han culturally and have much Han ancestry but that does not change who their mothers were.
August 19, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Dragon Horse
I’m not sure who Trex was talking to but I posted:
“A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.”
That being said, it is obvious women were acculturated, as Trex and everyone else realizes, he seems to think this is not important though…
August 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM
trex
no,first of all, bai yue basically mean 100 different tribes from south
.yue is not a single tribe
cantonese motherline is closely related to Zhuang not vietnamese which is one of the bai yue tribes
and no,its not a chinese thing to count on the fatherside
MTDNA mutation rate is very random, it easily affect the coding sequence of it, it can easily change under the different environments
but as for the fatherline, it does not change, which is why the genetics community mostly ignore the MTDNA when study origin, the mostly focus on YDNA
August 21, 2009 at 10:23 PM
Dragon Horse
Trex:
There is no need to try any appeal to authority or to try to pretend you are an authority. There are literally 1,000 of studies on MtDNA out there, if it was so insignificant no one would waste the research money. The truth is that MtDNA does mutate faster than the Y Chromosome, but it that is relative, it is not like every 10 generations there are thousands or millions of women with a new line of MtDNA. Also, some of the variation in MtDNA is not due to mutation at all, but due to people’s behavior. Historically it was not uncommon for bands of related men to invade area and reduce the reproductive success of the local men (some times completely whipping them out). Men tend not to see women as a threat and in many situations in ancient history as a commodity so they often allowed certain women to live, which would become wives, concubines, etc. In most areas in the world, the MtDNA is more diverse than the Y Chromosome, partially due to this.
January 10, 2010 at 6:23 PM
Xue Fulan
Trex does not know much about genetic. His not using a good brain..but rather uses his so called “chauvinistic patriotic judgement” of a Southern Chinese migrant which make him looks nonsense..Chinese and Vietnamese and a lot of oriental looking China minorities share the same patrilineal subclades 02 and 03. In fact these subclades are also common in the South East Asian ethnics that don’t have oriental appearance.. So, merely based on this assumption there there is also possibility that the Northern and Southern Chinese Han forefathers could be the Indonesians or the Philipines ethnic since they also share the same patrilineal subclades genes..so how are you going to prove who is your forefathers..However, these O genetic subclades are the descendant of the NO haplogroup and this gene marker is more common in the Buoyei and Zhuang ethnic of China. And also these NO gene originate nearby the Aral Lake (present Khazakstan). Therefore it is high likely that the forefathers of the Hans, China minorities and South East Asians are actually the China minorities or even outsiders from central Asian..This does not sounds nice to be listened by the Chinese Hans..The fact is, why should we all care about who is our forefathers. Chinese people should be more broadminded by looking at culture aspect as the forefarthers. The western don’t dig deep into the so called forefathers to prove who is more “Nordic” or in another word more “European” because they have more brain to know that they themselves are genetically diversed and the Southern European abundance of outsiders genes such as J,G,E and N (which comes from the North African, Middle East and the Siberian Tundra). What is important to them is that if you are an the indegenous ethnic of the area bounded by the Ural mountain and the Bosphorous Strait you are therefore considered White European and this is all that matters. Anybody could become an American, French or even Russian, but not everyone could be a White European. Humans nowadays are mongrel (mix) so Chinese should try to stop comparing and proving their forefather genetics. Stop being stupid.
April 3, 2010 at 3:53 AM
Wee
As far as I know the southern chinese the hokkien, cantonese tiew chiew are all from the north originally under the Han dynasty. When the empire collapse they were force to move down southern china. I think most of those stayed north got killed by the mongolians. As time goes most of the southern chinese travel further south to Vietnam, Malaysia, Singpore because of trading and better life. They would have mix with the local people of Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia (Nonya (chinese & Malaya mix)) I would say from that split there would have been a slight genetic difference. But there will be a common genetic Mongolian or Han genes
April 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM
Dragon Horse
Wee:
This is somewhat true, but we also have to remember that “Southern China” was occupied, and the Yue (Nan Yue) and other types of “Yue” that are extinct or have been absorbed by the Han lived in inside of Modern Day China, in Guangdong, etc, so the mixing started early, because most of the early settlers were mostly military men (not women).
I would also say that the South got a huge influx of people at the end of the Tang Dynasty, from the North, the Tang was started by people of mixed ancestry (part Han/Turkic I believe)…this is why Guangdong hua speakers often call themselves “Tang Ren” (Tong Yin) instead of “Han Ren”.
November 13, 2010 at 10:28 AM
Đông A
Some people belive themselves they are Han ethnic group and try to gather any informations to prove their “origin”; They ignor any opposite informations. However, some of them do not know exactly where they are from as they do not have their DNA analysed. So some of them are against their ancesters.
November 2, 2011 at 7:40 PM
Jenny
what dummy called southern chinese austroloid genes??? MOst southern chinese do not have australoid gene pool. Australoid genes are people in Indonesian, Malaysia & pacific islanders. Some people of vietnam , Thailand, Cambodian, Loas and Burma have that in them. In Vietnam most of the indigeous viets in southern vietnam are austroloid people. Get your fact straight before posting. Southern chinese are way better looking than northern chinese which looks more like mongoloids, koreans and some japanese and that is why they don’t like their real faces and most of these people went for plastic surgery to get the prettier faces of southern chinese people.
November 6, 2011 at 4:39 PM
Guangdongbelongstochina
LOL, Vietnamese are the ones that do not listen to any opposite informations. Such a hypocrisy some of them are. First of all Southern Chinese (Cantonese + Hokkien) do have Baiyue blood. Xi’an Jiaotong university proved this. Second, according to Vietnamese logic, this makes them non Han chinese. Vietnamese think Han chinese = race. The original chinese 2000 + years ago (zhou people + qin people + han dynasty people) = Modern day 21st century northern mandarin speaking chinese. They skipped over a lot of history. So, are modern day mandarin speaking northern chinese really the same as those chinese 2000+ years ago in the north. Mandarin is only 700 years old and after the fall of the han dynasty, northern china got invaded by nomadic tribes (xiongnu + xianbei + jurchens + khitans + mongols + tanguts + Qiang + Di + shatuo turks + etc). This groups not only mixed with the local populations, they committed genocide and forced many people down south. These people who went down south mixed with the sinicized yue peoples. Many nomads sinicized in the north, their descendents among the modern day northern chinese. As you can see both northerners and southerners have diverse bloodlines, but only northerners belong to this han ”race”, Vietnamese assume all northerners = ancestors of the huaxia. Truth is, on a racial level, there is no such thing as a pure han chinese race. Northern chinese in different provinces look different from each other. The current han chinese is not a race, but an ethnocultural group. It is based on culture not diverse bloodlines. If you are descended from Xiongnu, you are han, but if you are descended from baiyue you are not han and if you are descended from huaxia (which is impossible today) you are han (this is the vietnamese viewpoint). The definition is very flawed and the vietnamese usage of the term han is outdated (would be valid in ancient times before sinicization of the south and north).